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Are we barking up the right tree here?

Are we barking up the right tree here?

Old Sep 5th 2015, 3:52 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

According to a survey by timetric and published in the Telegraph, New Zealanders are the 6th most travelled people in the world with half having a trip overseas and with each person having on average 3.8 trips domestically per year. Just offering a different perspective If moving to NZ, you will generally speaking, but depending on salary, be able to go on holidays. Even on here, quite a few appear to be able to make trips back to the UK.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 5:19 pm
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Originally Posted by garethwm
A lot of people I know are frequently taking overseas holidays. I think something like a million of us have holidays in Australia every year, not counting other destinations, for example. And going by the crush at Sylvia Park yesterday morning I dont think retail is doing too shabbily. Although holidays on 60k with a family is pushing it. Its normal for both spouses or partners to be working here.
Is that a million Kiwis holidaying in Australia or a million trips to Australia made by Kiwis? I think it's the latter, you see (and was actually 1.1 million to the year ending June 2015) and it makes a huge difference. Your spin makes it sound like nearly a quarter of Kiwis can afford an Australian holiday every year; whereas the reality is that a reasonable number of Kiwis make multiple trips to Australia annually for business, a lot of Kiwis make a trip each year for work-related reasons, and a lot of Kiwis visit relatives in Australia and do so by maxing out the CC and flying on the very cheap airlines. And then there's a sizeable number of wealthy Kiwis who make a couple of holiday trips to Oz each year.

Something important to bear in mind about New Zealand is that we have one of the fastest increasing wealth gaps, and therefore we have an increasingly super-wealthy group of people at the top who make 'averages' more and more meaningless.
Here's a link to explain the increasing gap: Understand Inequality - Inequality: A New Zealand Conversation
And for the stats lovers among us, here's some detail about NZ: Wealth and Disparities in New Zealand

Originally Posted by garethwm
According to a survey by timetric and published in the Telegraph, New Zealanders are the 6th most travelled people in the world with half having a trip overseas and with each person having on average 3.8 trips domestically per year. Just offering a different perspective If moving to NZ, you will generally speaking, but depending on salary, be able to go on holidays. Even on here, quite a few appear to be able to make trips back to the UK.
Again, this doesn't mean that a 'holidaying overseas' lifestyle is affordable for the average Kiwi. 3.8 domestic trips - what a meaningless statistic without being able to ask whether those trips were (a) specifically for leisure (b) did not involve staying with rellies / camping. Even half having had an overseas trip is meaningless unless we know what proportion of those were OEs taken in youth on a shoestring ...

Last edited by bourbon-biscuit; Sep 5th 2015 at 5:27 pm. Reason: thought better of opening that can of worms
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 5:58 pm
  #108  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

I agree with you BB a lot of travel is business and it seems quite the done thing to travel to Head office (usually Aussie, Welly or Auckland) and to conferences and training overseas (Australia). They do love a conference and many people from my office travel to Wellington at least once a month and often more.


Always makes me laugh when I hear how well travelled Kiwis are; we have friends spread to the four corners of Auckland and you can guarantee that it will be comment worthy from locals who are often dumfounded that we travelled 'all the way' from one side of Auckland to the other for a BBQ or dinner.


It it something of a national joke to lampoon the masses that have never travelled beyond the Bombays. So many people have never left Auckland, far less the country or visited the South Island or elsewhere beyond the family bach at the Coromandel or the annual camping trip up North at Christmas.


The majority of people that we know of that 'travel' are fellow expats that are making the trip to visit rellies and we all know how hard they have to scrimp and sacrifice to get the money together for that.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 6:43 pm
  #109  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Yes iv def noticed the wage gap. We have a reasonable income. In our small town we have rundown houses. In the uk we would call them sheds. Then on the otherside of the street could have houses worth a fortune.
For e.g the schools. I know of teachers that have said some children have no lunch at schools because they have no money whilst others parents are multi millionaires.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Hi, we've been here six years and love it. The schools are different, but in a good way. They encourage children to be independant free thinkers, unlike the regimented nanny-state of the UK schools.

We're not filthy rich, but do OK. hubsta does OK as an analyst and I manage a retail store in the cbd. We find we have more time at home together, and people are friendly and chilled out.

The houses are a bit of a shock, but you learn to live like a kiwi, and often you just need to learn how to deal with different things. It's not the UK, it's NZ.

Is it windy in Wellington? Well, yeah, but not quite 24/7. The weather is certainly better than the Scottish town I'm from! Heaps of great weather in winter and hanging clothes out all year-round.

My kids take the beach for granted, but isn't that fabulous? You get out of NZ what you put in. If you're always comparing things to the UK, you'll perhaps not do so well. If you get on with it and embrace your new culture, you'll do just fine.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 8:21 pm
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Funny how these threads always end in an arguement
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 8:56 pm
  #112  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Its not spin. Its called google. Google mastercard kiwis travelled herald. 49% of New Zealanders travelled overseas in 2013. Yes? No? Spin? Perhaps its mastercards spin? Hand on heart though. I cant think of one healthy adult I know here who has not travelled overseas. However, I think there is such a thing as spin. For instance, this notion put forward that many adult Aucklanders havnt ventured past the Bombays. Ridiculous.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 9:12 pm
  #113  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Originally Posted by RichieRich80
Funny how these threads always end in an arguement
I wont post any more. But sometimes its good, I think, to hear a different view if someone has it. Looks like the first poster is no longer with us anyhow. Perhaps just as well
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 10:06 pm
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Originally Posted by garethwm
Its not spin. Its called google. Google mastercard kiwis travelled herald. 49% of New Zealanders travelled overseas in 2013. Yes? No? Spin? Perhaps its mastercards spin? Hand on heart though. I cant think of one healthy adult I know here who has not travelled overseas. However, I think there is such a thing as spin. For instance, this notion put forward that many adult Aucklanders havnt ventured past the Bombays. Ridiculous.
I found your article and here's what info I could get about the study:

The research was done by market research company Ipsos, which carried out online surveys of 406 New Zealanders aged 18-16.


So you cited a survey paid for by Mastercard of 406 online NZers (no bias there then ...). I was citing Statistics NZ data using exit cards - click the link and look for the excel document on the right hand side, then navigate to the correct table: International Travel and Migration: July 2015

There probably are a fair few people in Auckland who rarely if ever travel south of the Bombay hills but then there's a lot of poverty in Auckland so that doesn't surprise me. It's not something I would ridicule though and I don't think it represents some sort of Kiwi deficiency. Plenty of poor people in London have never left London ...
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 11:06 pm
  #115  
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Good points Bourbon Biscuit.
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Old Sep 5th 2015, 11:08 pm
  #116  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Originally Posted by bourbon-biscuit
So you cited a survey paid for by Mastercard of 406 online NZers (no bias there then ...)

Hehe. Not only is the sample incredibly skewed, but the margin of error makes it near worthless.

On the topic of arguments, I don't particularly see this thread as too argumentative. The fact is is that emigrating to New Zealand with a family in your middle-late period of life on a below median joint income is a huge and immensely expensive undertaking, with a degree of risk that's not easily encapsulated in gauzy discussions about the weather and beaches. It's far better for people on the ground and in the know to be frank, to poke holes in assumptions and stress-test arguments before some could make a costly mistake.


Originally Posted by ScottishSally
hubsta does OK as an analyst and I manage a retail store in the cbd.
I suspect your joint family income will be in the top 25%, if not the top one or two deciles. New Zealand can be a great place to live if you're not scrabbling around, cutting corners to meet the necessities of life, let alone keeping a warm house so your kids aren't prey to the endemic degree of childhood respiratory illnesses in New Zealand.

High outgoings for housing costs relative to income (high OTIs) are often associated with financial stress for low- to middle-income households. Low-income households especially (Q1 and Q2) can be left with insufficient income to meet other basic needs such as food, clothing, basic household operations, transport, medical care and education for household members.

http://www.msd.govt.nz%2Fdocuments%2...7OtokDCT5zxl4Q
And more importantly, from the same paper:

In the longer run AHC child poverty rates in 2013 were close to double what they were in the late 1980s mainly because housing costs in 2013 were much higher relative to income than they were in the late 1980s.

Using the official 2008 EU deprivation index, New Zealand ranked well for older people (65+) and not so well for children – a finding consistent with the relativities produced within New Zealand using the AHC income measure and the ELSI and MWI measures:

• a 13% population hardship rate, at the EU median
• an 18% hardship rate for children, above the EU median (15%), and ranking NZ below the richer western European nations against whom we have traditionally benchmarked
• a 3% hardship rate for those aged (65+), ranking near the top among EU nations.
So for anyone looking at trying to bring a family over and survive on $70k pa, reading this thread, you can't say you haven't been warned.

I also noted that the OP insisted that everyone in the family had no medical problems. As someone who is now slowly recovering from a viral condition that struck out of the blue and has kept me out of the office for a month and may take another couple of months to fully clear… my only answer to this frame of mind is 'Not yet'. Never underestimate the very real benefits of the NHS.
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Old Sep 6th 2015, 12:31 am
  #117  
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Purrball, the NZ death rate 1.75 per 100000 from childhood respiratory disease is identical to the UK rate, and both are low by world standards.
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Old Sep 6th 2015, 1:37 am
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Originally Posted by garethwm
Purrball, the NZ death rate 1.75 per 100000 from childhood respiratory disease is identical to the UK rate, and both are low by world standards.

Sorry, are you some kind of whiz at cherry-picking dubious statistics to present strawmen arguments?

I didn't say anything about the death rate, nor would I expect New Zealand to be so ramshackle and down-at-heel or politically obtuse to allow swathes of children to actually die from respiratory illnesses. But hospitalisation, for instance, from Govt figures:

Given that the relative rate of asthma for children and adults in Canada(60) is similar to that of New Zealand’s (15.6% and 8.3% versus 14.2% and 11.2%), a suitable reduction in hospitalisations seems plausible since Canadian hospitalisation rates are well below that of New Zealand(60).
Canadian asthma hospitalisation rates from 2004/05 were 9 to134 per 100,000 for individuals aged 5–44 years whilst New Zealand estimates were 122 to 270 per 100,000 for individuals aged 5–34 years.

That's over double the rate of hospitalisations. Canada has a far colder climate. Many New Zealanders live in vastly overpriced, incredibly cold, draughty and damp homes; sheds, as someone put it upthread.

Fine. Plan your annual household income around a single salary of NZ$70k based on job offers that don't even necessarily exist, let alone the dubious idea of 30yr mortages being handed out to 55 year olds who've just rocked up on the shores of New Zealand. Grab your kids and venture forth on some quixotic quest to the other side of the planet in search of sunshine and barbecues, only to find yourself in some draughty, freezing single glazed and virtually unheated home on the outskirts of Wellington, perhaps Porrirua, Wainuiomata or right out in the back of the Hutt Valley, wearing woolies inside, scrimping to make ends meet so you can afford a decent pair of shoes or a dentists appointment.

I'm under no illusions that New Zealand is a fantastic place to emigrate to, for certain types of people under specific circumstances, but sticking as much as I can to the topic of this particular thread and from what slender facts we can glean of this particular family's resources, then in my opinion, it would criminal to tell them to come in because the water's fine.

If anyone thinks I derive some pleasure to criticise my home country, it doesn't. I once hoped to move back myself, but after a trip to catch up with friends and family and seeing how many people were struggling with many things that many people in the UK would take for granted… and the exorbitant cost of many things; London prices on Teeside salaries, I took a far more grounded view of the relative pros and cons of moving over there. Also bear in mind that many Kiwis wouldn't open up about their lives to that degree to expat Brits. Poking around your old hometown gives you an insight that no amount of internet research and watching TV shows would show you.

Anyway, I'm done here.
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Old Sep 6th 2015, 7:47 am
  #119  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Its the death rate as listed by WHO? Why dubious? Childhood asthma is as much of a problem in the UK as it is in NZ. The OECD lists it 1 UK 2 NZ 3 Australia in order of severity (going from memory of when it was last discussed on here). Perhaps a genetic thing?
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Old Sep 6th 2015, 8:31 am
  #120  
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Default Re: Are we barking up the right tree here?

Wow, a lot has happened since I last logged in!
A huge thanks to everyone who's contributed, there is a lot of great info being shared, different opinions and experiences that I'll have to read through again to make sure I've not missed anything but all amazingly helpful.
Some of the comments really shook us up and brought up so many more questions that we need to think about.
I am so thankful to all of you trying to give us an idea of how things actually work there and what it's like.
It's so hard to try to explain such things to anyone without knowing their exact circumstances, how they live, what they spend money on, what's important to them and what their priorities in life are but you've all been fab and we really appreciate it. It's really interesting reading so many different responses and attitudes, from so many different people, some who are more careful and methodical, some who go by "one life, live it" and all in between.
It's so hard to try to decide whose story sounds most similar to ours, whose lifestyle can be compared to ours and whether those who advise we would/wouldn't have enough to live on would say the same if they knew exactly how we live.

We now live off one wage which isn't very high, possibly even below average. Everything else goes into savings, we don't need it. The next question is, can we do the same in NZ because the idea is that I don't HAVE to work, that my job would provide us with those little extras. From many of your replies, it sounds like that won't be possible.

I will keep you up to date. Thank you all.
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