fourseasons

Hi there, I have one primary aged child and a middle school (years 7 and 8) at school here in Auckland. My first experience was of the state system at primary and I was shocked at how poor it was, in my estimation the children are 1-2 years behind the UK here and in some areas i.e. handwriting, much further behind.

All I can say is that I wish I were back in the UK, I truly believe I am letting my daughter (year 8) down and have to say that if I had my child in a good UK school currently I would not give that up to live here.

I find it interesting that someone has posted that it is easier to get into Auckland Uni - how is that a good thing? I know some posters have said that they have gone to UK universities with NCEA however this only seems to be if they get excellence. There is no depth to the curriculum, it is poorly taught, there is no rigour. Of course some kids do well but I would say that the ones who are bright and motivated do well, the rest just get by.

Kiwi's are very good at talking up everything about their country, however most of them haven't experienced much abroad so don't really know! They are slipping down the league tables in maths - I'm not surprised at all.

Lastly, your comment regarding empty exercise books - I have heard this so many times - what you can guarantee there will be however is lots of stuck in work sheets probably half completed!

Theretohere

Hi there, I know Dunedin is an established place and there are good educational opportunities. Are you in favour of grammars then? I put my son through 11 plus when we got back last August and he amazed me by qualifying for a grammar in Stroud, however he is not keen on all boys so dilemma still there! Are you happy that your children are having a well rounded education then? I presume you are! Thanks for your input.

dannigirl

Yet, NZ is above Scotland, England and Wales on the OECD PISA results. I am a bit perplexed as to how this can be if the education system is so bad. There are good and bad schools everywhere.

To the OP - all you are going to get is lots of anecdotal evidence about how people find their own personal experiences of the system in either country. For us, we've had an appalling experience in Wales. My daughter is only six and in Year 1 but we've had a really bad run of supply teachers - 17 in 3 months at last count, although we have a permanent teacher finally. Our school was just about in special measures. The school seem to thrive on telling kids what they can't do, it's all very officious. Drives me mad!

But it seems that you fundamentally have issues with the NZ education system which is very different to the UK system. You've stated one of the reasons you returned to the UK is because of your experiences of the education system.

I do not envy your dilemma, maybe the key is finding a "better" kiwi school, but I'm not sure they'll ever live up to your expectations. Especially if you are comparing and contrasting constantly to children back in the UK, which I know is tempting, but will drive you bonkers.

I think if you have a chance to attend a grammar school, you should take it, it's a good opportunity your son. Do you really think you will find a school in NZ that would meet your expectations. No school will meet all children's needs, all of the time but I think it seems clear that you prefer and should stay within the UK system.

Theretohere

Hi Dannigirl. The thing is you find out as you go along. I didn't have any particular feelings about NZ or UK at the beginning of all this. I now know abit more than I did. I know that UK is v officious and exam bound, and NZ is alot more free, and probably more child-centred. In NZ you seem to be totally reliant on the teacher, the curriculum document is only a guideline, so teachers have so much freedom. What this means is that children can be with someone who wants to do lots with them, or rather narrow minded teachers who do the same thing every year. In UK at least you know your child is going to cover certain topics and lots of them. At our school in NZ the head decided years 1- 3 should be 80% maths and literacy, and there was nothing much else, one or two projects during that whole time. There are areas in NZ where there are some brilliant schools, my friend moved to Wanganui to St Johns, a decile 10 school, and is very pleased with it, her year 1 and 2 children had lots of visits out, did lots of projects, my son never went anywhere and did 2 projects during 2 years from what I could tell. I have found out that catholic schools in NZ have a much more extensive curriculum, and sound great, really stretch the children and teach far more subject areas plus alot of general knowledge, but I didn't know this at the beginning. I think the reason NZ comes out higher is that it is more equable, it doesn't have such huge areas of deprivation as UK does, possibly. I think if the secondary schools in NZ covered subjects in depth I would be quite happy with it, probably more so than the very competitive UK system, which is why I put this post up, to find out whether parents in NZ are pleased with secondary. I am not convinced yet, my neice told me a friend of hers who was educated in NZ and did well couldn't get into a single UK university. I think I have to see for myself, never went to see one when we were over there which is a shame as tickets very expensive!

bourbon-biscuit

Yes, I said it is easier to go to university in NZ. For many kids this is a good thing. I didn't say it was good for all kids but I do like that the NZ education system was designed with middle and lower achieving kids needs at the forefront, even though that means that it has not been a great match for my own kids. When you say there is no depth to the curriculum, poorly taught and lacking 'rigour', then I know you are pretty much just having a rant based on your own negative experience.

Oh God, where did you get this idea?! The reason it comes out higher is because the system is carefully constructed to try and meet the needs of all learners. I think it is less good for very capable students but I respect that it is a better education system for middle and lower ability students (my opinion only).

Seeing one school wouldn't have been that useful. Neither is the story about your niece's friend. My daughter took scholarship history and English last year (she's not doing NCEAs but took a couple of scholarships in yr12 to get a feel for them for this year as she will do them as well as her IB finals) and believe me, they are very much in-depth enough. NCEAs are very different in style and scope from GCSEs but if you move over here planning to stay then your kids will become Kiwis, get a Kiwi education, and be able to attend Kiwi universities: that's what you should be considering in comparison to the UK rather than pulling out a particular dimension to compare to a particular dimension in the UK.

southerner

After spending 4 weeks in the UK recently, it has firmed up my view that its almost impossible to compare systems, at any level.

For example:
UK schooling has 3 subjects only in its ultimate level (yr 13), vs 5 or 6 in NZ
NCEA vs GCSE
Primary school strict curriculum vs targeted outcomes
Mix of grammar, comprehensive and public (private) vs public, integrated and private
The elite 7 (or so) universities and the rest, vs 7 universities in total
Needing to get 2 A* and a A to get into a top uni, vs only specific courses (such as medicine) are restricted by grade

fourseasons

OP - I think you misunderstood my post - we are very unhappy with the education my daughter is receiving here. The thing about the UK system is that you know what they are covering, when they are covering it and what standard they need to be. From what I have seen and experienced in NZ these things are broadly in place for maths and English but everything else is a lottery. Anything covered around history is very very narrow, in fact my daughter only seems to have covered NZ history (mainly Maori based) at the moment - hardly setting her up for a life in the world today.

Now you have said your son is at a grammar school hour concerns are clearer to me. From what I understand it is uber competitive in the UK, parents are much more pushy and education is basically everyone for themselves. NZ on the other hand is at the other end of the scale, yes there is pushiness (mainly from the Asian contingent) it isn't so bad. I am facing a similar dilemma to you in that, for me, NZ is too laid back, class sizes are too big, not enough additional support, poor/narrow curriculum whereas the UK is pushy, exam/results driven (get the grade at all costs).

As regards results, I would agree with you re the PISA results. The secondary population in NZ is much much smaller than the UK. The demographic is very very different so it is difficult to compare the two. I feel NZ to absolutely shine but it does relatively badly. When I came here I expected NZ, with it's small population, to have sleek council services, a good education system etc but have been shocked - it's as bad if not worse than the UK (don't get me started on corruption here!)

Anyway if your son is at grammar he must be very bright, especially if he wasn't tutored. I always find myself looking forward to what my children will be doing long term and will their education path support that. I know that NCEA won't support it, so I need to ensure that I either move back to the UK in the next year or 2 or get my children in a school that allows them to do IB.

pom4gud

"yes there is pushiness (mainly from the Asian contingent)"

Really? I have noticed this thread is descending into anecdotal sweeping generalisations, but I know plenty of pushy Kiwi parents - and incase you hadn't read the whole thread, I think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black!

If the educations system causes such angst over the future happiness or otherwise the various OPs offspring, then it probably isn't the place to bring them up.

Theretohere

Hi there Four Seasons, wish I knew what OP meant! Just to say my son isn't yet at a grammar, we were back in NZ last year and as I was coming back anyway (my father is v ill) I thought I'd enrol him for the test and passed, so would be going next academic year. I was amazed myself, as he hadn't covered alot of the curriculum but they made it tutor proof this year apparently. Actually he said his NZ education helped him, as it made him so calm, he took it in his stride. The education did cause me angst as he was just so bored, and when I spoke to other parents they felt the same, he never came back and said he'd learnt something interesting and he is a very curious questioning child, I feel the school was really failing him, the lack of content was hard to believe. We went back last year for four months and he himself compared English to NZ said in UK he was learning 99% of the time, in NZ, about 40%. However he'd still rather be there as that's where he made friends. I guess it causes you angst when your child isn't even learning to write, I had to teach him myself. I have heard today by the way that in Finland they are no longer teaching writing, everything will be on computer, I think NZ is half way there, every teacher told me it wouldn't be important anymore. But I don't think one situation is bad, another good, wish the sense of cooperation, teaching children to be kind to each other instead of compete could be transplanted to UK. I guess he is bright (everyone says so anyway) so maybe from sound of it he'd be better of in UK, he has his sights set on engineering.

Theretohere

Oh God, where did you get this idea?! The reason it comes out higher is because the system is carefully constructed to try and meet the needs of all learners. I think it is less good for very capable students but I respect that it is a better education system for middle and lower ability students (my opinion only).



Thanks for this post, 'carefully constructed to meet the needs of all learners' is brilliant, sounds like an ideal education when put that way. As opposed to targets which are often out of range of most learners. Well this would be a powerful case for NZ - does that continue throughout or mainly apply to maths?

bourbon-biscuit

Careful with your quoting: I said TRY and meet the needs of all learners

bourbon-biscuit

PS: Theretohere, OP means the Original Post/Poster
When you want to reply direct to someone on a thread and quote them, just press the little 'quote' button at the bottom of their post. Yell out if you don't know what I mean

fourseasons

Theretohere - your experience matches mine. The lack of content just makes me so sad and in my opinion the laid back attitude translates directly into lazy attitude. I too have had teachers over here tell me that 'writing isn't important' - again another excuse not to teach something - the writing of 12 year olds looks like what a 6 year old would do in the UK.

I don't agree that the curriculum is 'carefully constructed to meet the needs of all learners', my children have attended 3 schools since we've been here, only 1 is anywhere near what I would find acceptable. An inquiry based curriculum can be amazing when it is well constructed and delivered by excellent teachers. If the NZ curriculum is so fab why is taking so long to raise the standards of the lowest section of society?

Lastly why would you aspire to send your child to university in a country where their top university is only just inside the top 100? The universities are slipping down the tables too but evidently that is because everyone else is getting better faster ......... yep!

Theretohere

I am off to bed now, but I really found the same, the writing is very poor, the problem is it's not just behind but I began to wonder if my child would ever write properly at all. I employed a wonderful tutor who had just finished teaching in an International school in Singapore (a NZ lady) for a couple of months and she looked at my son's exercise books and muttered about how sloppy it was, and what a poor education he was receiving, and this was a well thought of school. I have moved my son into a 'good' primary school over here, within 2 weeks he was writing fluently, a child will work to the standard of the class if they are able, but he wouldn't have had that opportunity if we had stayed where we were. I wish I didn't feel this way, but was very disappointed. I went around another primary before we left, and scoured the walls for anything like studies on countries, science, environment...really couldn't see anything, but plenty on learning styles, what it is to be a learner. I agree that laid back can easily translate into lazy. I would really like to study comparative education now, I do think NZ still has alot to learn from Europe, it could absorb some of the breadth and depth of curriculum - it is very NZ centric.

bourbon-biscuit

Right, you are clearly replying to me. Let me remind you I said TRY. NZ's curriculum does TRY to meet the needs of all learners and I'm not just talking about their academic ability. I think this is a strength in a broad sense (whilst accepting that it is not entirely successful in practice!) but I have also said I think it does not cater that well for high achieving kids, which is a weakness.

I agree entirely that an inquiry-based curriculum is at the mercy of the caliber of the teachers much more than a content-based curriculum. I also think that the standard of teacher training in NZ has declined and so there is a mismatch. However, that is a complex topic and there are plenty of crap teachers in the UK too.

Lastly, your comment about aspiring to send kids to NZ unis that don't even make the top 100 internationally is nasty elitism I made the point that getting into NZ unis is less competitive and easier than getting into UK unis and for a lot of students I think that is a positive. However, it's not personally that positive for me: I am a parent of a high achieving kid who will almost certainly go overseas for university next year on a substantial scholarship (a very upsetting subject for me), yet I have the good grace to recognise the merits of NZ's education system. Aspiring for a NZ uni for your kids is not a lack of aspiration for them; you sound like a horrid snob to suggest as much.