Riots.

Old Aug 11th 2011, 12:17 am
  #151  
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Margaret Parkinson View Post
My solution... Water canons, rubber bullets, tear gas, the sack for all offenders in jobs, loss of university places for student offenders, loss of all benefits for offenders or offenders parents.
Cool, so that should give offenders more time and need to concentrate on looting.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 1:12 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
Cool, so that should give offenders more time and need to concentrate on looting.
So what would you do? I truly believe we have all this endless shite in UK society cos no one fears anything because the courts are weak. I have always looked to Singapore with admiration. I think pretty much the only scared people there are criminals. Bring back corporal punishment and bring back the death penaly where it is 100% certain that you have the guilty person. There are many cases like this where a person's guilt is total and on video or provable by some other 100% correct, incorruptable way. Society is too soft. The iron fist is needed, harsh penalties and the restoration of order and calm. There is no accountability for anyone apparently..unless you are a car driver who breaks some traffic infringement then woe betide you. I behave myself because I am shit scared of what will happen to me if I err. I have respect for authority borne out of a disciplined upbringing. When I was plod I did the right thing again because of what I knew would happen to me had I chosen to do the wrong thing. Alas many of my colleagues did not have the same values. Reason I left.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 1:18 am
  #153  
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
So what would you do? I truly believe we have all this endless shite in UK society cos no one fears anything because the courts are weak. I have always looked to Singapore with admiration. I think pretty much the only scared people there are criminals. Bring back corporal punishment and bring back the death penaly where it is 100% certain that you have the guilty person. There are many cases like this where a person's guilt is total and on video or provable by some other 100% correct, incorruptable way. Society is too soft. The iron fist is needed, harsh penalties and the restoration of order and calm. There is no accountability for anyone apparently..unless you are a car driver who breaks some traffic infringement then woe betide you. I behave myself because I am shit scared of what will happen to me if I err. I have respect for authority borne out of a disciplined upbringing. When I was plod I did the right thing again because of what I knew would happen to me had I chosen to do the wrong thing. Alas many of my colleagues did not have the same values. Reason I left.
We have the death penalty here but a high crime rate.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 2:49 am
  #154  
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Sally Redux View Post
We have the death penalty here but a high crime rate.
and armed cops, armed civilians and a high death/crime rate related to firearms

must be why NZ has such a low rate of looting and violent crime, that we have the death penalty, armed cops, and draconian responses to civil disobedience........or wait perhaps we don't

of course capital punishment works, so does chopping people's hands off, stoning them to death and taking away their means of support. then they should be made to read the Daily Mail.......and have their brains slowly sucked out. it works to increase the rates of violence, the numbers of people prepared to shoot cops to escape, and most importantly it works to produce and sustain an underclass that have little to lose (or they think) much to gain by rising up and looting/attacking the establishment.

or we could try proper re-distribution of wealth, opportunities for people to better themselves/rehabilitate and real means of preventing the scumbags (cause there are some out there - those that incite true violence, those that live on crime and corruption and really twisted people that abuse and kill for fun) from abusing their freedoms.

it seems that once a society becomes polarised in the have-v-havenot department it goes to custard, either as a result of economic apocalypse (just look at the stats for pre-1930s and pre-2008, when the wealth gaps widened before depressions) or as a result of the poor/disenfranchised rising up one way or another
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:12 am
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Default Re: Riots.

[QUOTE=lardyl;9551770]and armed cops, armed civilians and a high death/crime rate related to firearms

must be why NZ has such a low rate of looting and violent crime, that we have the death penalty, armed cops, and draconian responses to civil disobedience........or wait perhaps we don't quote

So how does Singapore manage it with corporal punishment, the death penalty and draconian punishment? I would vote all 3 in tomorrow for the UK and wherever else needs it. As I said there is order in Singapore and crime is very, very low so I understand. I am sick of the masses being shat on by the minority who then get all the "oh he's poor deprived lad" shite. We need to get tough on crime. What has anyone to fear about getting tough on crime if they are not going to break the law? Make punishment for serious crimes as tough as you like. It will never affect me because I behave. But it will have an effect (and a permanent one in some cases) on some of the world's bigger shits.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:20 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
[
So how does Singapore manage it with corporal punishment, the death penalty and draconian punishment? I would vote all 3 in tomorrow for the UK and wherever else needs it. As I said there is order in Singapore and crime is very, very low so I understand.
It's a relatively small and more homogeneous city state where there is much less political and cultural freedom than in western countries. I'll take western democracies with higher crime rates than the societal control that Singapore imposes on its residents. Censorship, particularly of the media, is just one of many examples:

In 2008, Reporters without Borders ranked Singapore as 144th out of 173 surveyed countries in terms of freedom of the press.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Singapore
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:36 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Justcol View Post
from what i can see this is nothing to do with race, the initial protest was race linked,
people being singled out by police etc etc but whats going on now is not linked to race or ethnicity at all
and i think anyone who is trying to make that link it way off the mark with whats going on
So it started off with race but has nothing to do with race now. These days everybody is against the police, or the state, is that what you're saying? What's the solution then, to marginalize people further or to start listening to why it all sparked off?

The people who do will be waking up this week in the sure and certain knowledge that after decades of being ignored and marginalised and harassed by the police, after months of seeing any conceivable hope of a better future confiscated, they are finally on the news. In one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything:

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

"Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere ‘’’

There are communities all over the country that nobody paid attention to unless there had recently been a riot or a murdered child. Well, they’re paying attention now.

Tonight in London, social order and the rule of law have broken down entirely. The city has been brought to a standstill; it is not safe to go out onto the streets, and where I am in Holloway, the violence is coming closer. As I write, the looting and arson attacks have spread to at least fifty different areas across the UK, including dozens in London, and communities are now turning on each other, with the Guardian reporting on rival gangs forming battle lines. It has become clear to the disenfranchised young people of Britain, who feel that they have no stake in society and nothing to lose, that they can do what they like tonight, and the police are utterly unable to stop them. That is what riots are all about.

Riots are about power, and they are about catharsis.
This is just a fragment of what this excellent blog had to say.

http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08...of-london.html
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:39 am
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Default Re: Riots.

This is the next part

They are not about poor parenting, or youth services being cut, or any of the other snap explanations that media pundits have been trotting out: structural inequalities, as a friend of mine remarked today, are not solved by a few pool tables. People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything – literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night. And now people have lost their homes, and the country is tearing itself apart.

Noone expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:41 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Giantaxe View Post
It's a relatively small and more homogeneous city state where there is much less political and cultural freedom than in western countries. I'll take western democracies with higher crime rates than the societal control that Singapore imposes on its residents. Censorship, particularly of the media, is just one of many examples:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Singapore
Hmm, not sure. I think I would rather live in the albeit 'Stepford wife' type of country like singapore than some of the lawless places around the world who have no censorship. I have been there and found it well ordered and pleasant. Obviously I have no idea how it is to live there long term.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:42 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Advice given to rioters to protect themselves

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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:48 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Expat Kiwi View Post
This is the next part
Not sure I agree with the cutting from that blog. Those reasons to feel powerful and having been told you are crap are valid reasons to do what they did? What ever the reasons there is never ever an excuse to do what these mindless bastards did to their neighbours. There are ways of doing things, peaceful ways. I have had lots of shit and bad luck in my life and years of others making me feel useless and worthless and hated...LOADS of it from birth, I have never rioted. Its all bollocks to try to excuse the inexcusable or someone trying to be bean baggy. I have been really skint too, with no qualifications at all but I got off my arse and did something, did loads of crap poorly paid jobs too. I also left home at 18 on a poorish wage and got by in my crappy bedsit with said job and no handouts.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:50 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Expat Kiwi View Post
Advice given to rioters to protect themselves

http://emptysthemepark.files.wordpre.../08/7mxcyz.jpg
Great, and I wonder why I wanted the bastards shot. Stiil do if it happens again so do loads of other people I have spoken to, kiwis included, one a grey haired lady.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 3:56 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Well of course that makes it right then chop their knackers off! hey G?
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 4:05 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
Not sure I agree with the cutting from that blog. Those reasons to feel powerful and having been told you are crap are valid reasons to do what they did?
Ipso facto yes. Unless you can think of another valid reason?

What ever the reasons there is never ever an excuse to do what these mindless bastards did to their neighbours. .
Now you're confusing reason with excuses. There's always a reason why these things happen, excuses are what people use to get out of facing up to the consequences of their actions.

If you don't get at the reason you won't be able to prevent it from happening again. It seems like every generation has its period of oppression and discontent. It's a shame that the lessons have to be re-learned the hard way by every future generation.

After what we've seen in places like Greece the only thing that surprises me is it took this long for it to happen in Britain.

Last edited by Expat Kiwi; Aug 11th 2011 at 4:07 am.
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Old Aug 11th 2011, 4:58 am
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Default Re: Riots.

Some brilliant posts on this thread

I wholeheartedly agree with the distinction made between reasons and excuses.
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