Hokey-pokey

Purrball -

The Weezer

Shocking health problems are not limited to the Maori, or are they even the worst affected, really. Lung and skin diseases are in high proportion in the Pacifica community too, in as high numbers, proportionally. I see lots of it, and it never fails to make me wonder what is going on in the homes. You don't need to live in South Auckland or in rural deprived areas too see it. I was in Auckland city on Friday having lunch in a food court surrounded by many office workers, but there were families too. I sat next to a Pacifica family eating McDonald's and both their young children had some sort of infected looking scabs on their bodies. I'm not a doctor, so I can be mistaken, but they looked like the kind I used to see frequently in the local schools where I worked, the kind that forms due to lack of hygiene, attention, and overcrowding. My former next door neighbour, an affable former school principal frequently had visits from his grandchildren, some of whom at times also suffered from the same afflictions. Beyond that, my child attends a decile 10 school in east Auckland, and I know for a fact that fully 1/4 of the class have asthma, so the high percentages of childhood illness in New Zealand is not caused by society's marginalisation of Maori people. New Zealand children in general, regardless of skin colour, suffer a disprortionate number of lung, skin and communicable diseases.

bourbon-biscuit

Most excellent post, Purrball. Rarely do we get intelligent, thoughtful posts on BE; opinions are the norm here

Weezer, you are right that Pacifica communities also have disproportionately high poor health. Can you provide some evidence for asserting that Maori are not the worst affected "really" and that the high proportion of poor health in Maori communities is "not caused by society's marginalisation" and that health disparities are culture blind? These are very bold assertions that fly in the face of health research findings in NZ, so I'd be very interested to read where you are getting these ideas from .... unless, of course, you got them from your bottom.

The Weezer

If you reread my post you can see I didn't mean that poor health among the Maori aren't caused by society's marginalisation. I meant to bring out the fact that NZ has such high rates childhood illness among all people, rich and poor and regardless of color. I also meant that the proportion of ill health among Pacifica people is very clost to the rate of ill health among Maori people. It's hard to say because most things I read lump the two together. Due to my work, I've had reason to keep tabs on these kinds of studies, so my impression, over the years, is that the two groups share similar problems, in similar proportions. I don't have time at the moment to pinpoint articles or surveys.

I think it would be easy to find articles outlining the high rate of lung diseases in NZ is caused by poorly insulated, damp homes. These problems are not limited to the poorest of NZers, and I can see evidence of it in my child's school. 1/4 of children in a classroom having asthma is extremely high.

Why do you have to be offensive?

bourbon-biscuit

I deleted my reply and decided to very carefully reread your post because it is not nice when someone makes out you said something you didn't.

The Weezer

High rates not just "caused by society's marginalisation of Maori people" not that there is no marginalisation happening.

BEVS

I thought you may have.

Bo-Jangles

It's a bit like that awkward bit at weddings in Church, when the hymns start and you 'all rise' it starts to get uncomfortable in the room; most people don't know the words, start to squirm and take an interest in their own feet, while a few troopers carry on. Yes, for a moment once or twice a year we can all put up and shut up and let them get on with the religious ceremonial stuff even if we don't believe - but I wouldn't want to be bombarded with all that crap everyday.

I have taken more than a passing interest in Maori culture actually and did two years at the Wananga, so have been well exposed to the people, their culture and traditions thank you, but still I don't think it is appropriate in a so called secular society to being force people into karakia and hymns in the workplace, schools, public meetings etc.

If NZ wants to truly embrace a multicultural society then it has to separate Maoridom from the largely conservative Christian teaching about Jesus, the Bible and Christian values. Whilst I signed up to learn Maori language and culture, I definitely did not expect have to stand up and sing hymns or say prayers at every lesson.

My understanding of a secular society means that prayers of any kind are inappropriate and framing this up as keeping this up for the sake of unique custom and practice doesn't change that. It's widely accepted that it is no longer appropriate for schools to give religious instructions or lead kids into prayers or bible reading and such like during normal school time; and thankfully for the most part, the very idea of pushing one religion to the exclusion of all others is a thing of the past.

It is 2014, boardroom prayers, hymns, blessings of food and stuff should be a thing of the past and certainly not something I wish to be any part of.

bourbon-biscuit

I agree with this.

Sadly, no it's not. 'Bible in schools' is still the only religious education many primary kids receive in NZ - and opting out of it is can be tricky for kids, though this is being challenged increasingly. My two both opted out and have spent an hour of every week amusing themselves unsupervised in the library for years. Literally every school round here has bible in schools - teachers love it cos it's an hour of release a week. My daughter loved religious studies for the two terms she was in a British school

bourbon-biscuit

This is the first time you have used 'just'; sorry if I failed to realise that was what you meant. I didn't say you denied the marginalisation existed, but you flatly denied that marginalisation plays a role in poor health - your statement on that was crystal clear.

However, moving on, if you now assert it's not 'just' marginalisation, what else do you propose explains the high rates of poor health in Maori communities? Genuinely interested in what you are driving at here.

DennisBergkamp

Haven't got much more to add other than I agree with Purball that this has been a good thread. I dont think i have seen any other discussion on this issue before. Points raised on both sides without it descending into personal abuse. I don't want sound like a broken record by going over my opinions again. I still don't wish to budge from my perspective. Perhaps in a few weeks once i've cooled down i'll see things differently. Sadly, i see instances of abuse being the norm so its hard to say i'll ever feel major sympathy for the Maori cause and the token gestures that frequent the workplace. My original post was concerned about practices in the workplace. Not the issues Maori face in society in general.

Respect is a two way thing. If i am treated with respect by Maori (actually any) customers i'm more likely to engage. If my only crime is to have been born overseas then its not fair to accept abuse from any NZ's as that is plain xenophobic. If i was born and raised in NZ i'd probably see things differently like Purball as Maori culture is ingrained at a young age. As a newcomer, i can only call it as i see it. If i am ever asked to participate in Maori customs at work i will refuse. Its not my cup of tea and it shouldn't be forced on people, especially with the religious undertones, due to the small print in people Job Descriptions about "principles of the Treaty". The NZ govt should be concerned about Maori poverty than a few songs in the workplace.

I'm tired - i was up all night waiting for the cup final! Victory at last

bourbon-biscuit

Yes, my husband was rather delighted with that result too! Long time coming

I do agree that you should not accept or be expected to accept abuse just because you work in public service. My husband works in mental health, so I'm sure you can imagine that this is a serious issue there. It bothers him often that in nz it is seen as somehow more acceptable for clients/ service users to abuse staff than it is in the UK where assaults on staff are taken very seriously. A significant episode occurred a couple of years ago where he was punched in the face - thankfully did not lose teeth but his lip split open and he had significant bruising, etc. he reported it to the police who did NOTHING because he works in mental health. WTF? A similar incident happened to a colleague while he was working in the UK - the abuser was prosecuted. Neither client was mental unwell enough for that to be an excuse. So you see I have much sympathy for your position

Where we differ is that I don't think it's racism when your clients spout that sort of rubbish - we are not part of a group that has been subjugated and is marginalised. When my husband was punched his attacker called him a "f***ing pom" (he does have a bit of a posh accent, lol). That's because he was expressing frustration, albeit in an utterly dysfunctional and unacceptable way. It's not ok and you should not have tolerate abuse from any customer/ client, but it is churlish to try and frame it as reverse racism as if it's part of a larger systemic plot the oppresses you and denies you your liberties using the language and slurs of your oppressors, rather than just being unacceptable behaviour by frustrated ranting clients. That's where we differ. Make your employer safeguard you against all forms of abuse, but there's no need to characterise abusers by their ethnicity and make generalisations beyond that. And there's no need to pretend that a few tossers ranting at you about being a POM is comparable to the history and plight of indigenous populations.

Robbie2010

Crap! Of course its racism!

"You Poms know nothing, get lost you dont belong here"

& "I want a Maori and not some Pom to speak to, not some foreigner"


Replace the word Poms with Paki and Maori with English then tell me that's not racist!

bourbon-biscuit

Then you don't fully understand racism.

Robbie2010

But I do! and its you that doesn't have a clue!