Justcol

Hmmm

Bo-Jangles

I think its pretty general; you could change the word Maori for Kiwi in the above sentence and its the same everywhere. Kiwi standard practice it seems is to promote one of their own, so I guess if the main man happens to be Maori then it will follow that anyone and everyone he knows will be promoted into roles around him. I know of some offices where everyone works together like it's all one big happy family - that's because mostly they are.

Although apparently we do have an Equal Opportunities Commissioner and some policies and laws with regards to race relations and discrimination in the workplace, I've yet to see anyone mention far less give them scant regard.

I find that the racism is rife on both sides of the Maori / Pakeha fence and never the twain shall meet.

Purrball

Coming back to this absurdly silly 'brain drain' argument, speaking only for myself and the handful of Kiwis I know who are here in London, we left New Zealand a long time ago for money, career and travel reasons... absolutely nothing to do with the Waitangi tribunal or being frozen out of jobs, supposedly because of positive discrimination. Those of us lucky enough to have dual EU/NZ citizenship or who have married EU nationals can stay, like me. And as many here would know, wherever you go, one year turns into two, two into five and before you know it, you've spent a decade or more away from where you were born.. and it changes you. But I still occasionally feel a sense of pride when I see the All Blacks doing the haka.

There are far more serious reasons — none of them to do with Maori — why I and others dabble with the idea of returning to New Zealand and then eventually dismiss it, before circling back to the idea again. But then I'm not in the habit of blaming other people for my own prejudices, decisions and behaviour.

And as far as Indian and Chinese culture being more important to New Zealand, this is also absurd. Yes for diverse cultures, love interesting cities, but I can visit a number of Chinatowns across the planet and did so not so long ago in New York. However, there's only one place in the world that I can visit a marae, visit Te Papa or rock out to some pacifica roots tunes in the back of beyond.

On my last visit back to New Zealand, I wanted to visit a number of Maori cultural sites, but time prevented a lot of that. But what was interesting to me is how mocked I was from many white Kiwis for wanting to do so and how comfortable they were in expressing their prejudices, assuming that because of my white skin, I'd be thinking the same...

...and one thing is certain. No-one who knows New Zealand can claim with a straight face that Maori have the upper hand. Proportionally, they make up the largest section of people living in poverty, cramped conditions and suffering the burden of childhood diseases.

Racism isn't about parochial and tribal prejudices or about people being nasty or xenophobic. It's about deeply-ingrained social structures and laws that are designed to keep coloured peoples in their supposed places. My mother, who used to be a teacher, told me how in 1950s New Zealand, Maori kids were routinely punished for speaking Maori. Imagine that, being violently abused by an adult for speaking your own language. They were shunted into lower educational pathways and denied the best jobs.

So while I don't have a lot of sympathy for my fellow Kiwis who are blind to their own white privilege, I do find it egregious that a British immigrant working in a public service capacity in New Zealand feels entitled to swan in and like some imperialist, bitterly mouth off about the indigenous peoples of their host country, making sweeping generalisations, asserting dubious historical claims, expressing disgust for New Zealand's founding documents and its national day, blaming it all on 'liberals', when the work of moving New Zealand into a far more enlightened state than it was 40 or 50 years ago was the result of many hardworking and outstanding people who have left a far greater mark on New Zealand's society than most of us ever will.

The more I read this thread, the more sympathy I have with the Maori guy who told the original poster "You Poms know nothing". Of course, you've presented yourself in the best possible light and have carefully omitted how you may have initially responded to him in the first place. Strikes me that he hit a nerve quite deeply and knew far more about your mindset than you would have the courage to admit, except on some anonymous message board, seeking the solace of fellow Brits. It's so craven, it's laughable.

It's the tiny, cramped mindset of a political philistine... and it's one of my pet hates, the idea that some people think that New Zealand is some sort of refuge for white flight and their own cultural anxieties. New Zealand isn't some sort of little Britain and it deserves a lot better.

Charismatic

Oooops, I've wandered into a thread with "strong views" expressed that diverge from my own.

The Weezer

I think the OP was being quite specific about particular instances at work, but this is certainly a sweeping generalisation.

So, in summary, OP briefly relates specific instances of xenophobia and wastage of public monies in NZ work place. Gets xenophobic, "go home if you don't like it" response from NZer (with added sprinkling of pompous historical essay) and a clear undertone of Pom bashing:

Purrball

No, it's more like:

OP briefly relates unconfirmed anecdote while employed at the people's expense, is unsatisfied how it's managed, then on the basis of one small incident, unpacks and extrapolates a series of unsubstantiated and deeply culturally-suspect sweeping smears and historically ignorant claims about a culture and people he doesn't seem to care much about... and this Kiwi quite rightly questions whether he's in the right line of work, not caring one whit whether the OP is British or not. No Pom-bashing intended; I would have said the same to any immigrant working in this same capacity and role.

I love British people; that's why I live in the UK. However, if you're going to work for the civil service in New Zealand, you need a broader mindset and a greater sense of cultural sensitivity than what I've seen here. As an immigrant to the UK (over 25 years here) I wouldn't expect to visit Barnsleymat's hometown and start mouthing off about Yorkshiremen and women, without getting an earful in response, let alone hold a post in the public sector where you're accountable to all.

And the pathetic pops against liberals. This liberal marched against the racist Springbok tour, against the criminalisation of gay men and raised a stink about the Rainbow Warrior. Time has most definitely told the story of who was right in the end about these political issues and more.

The point still stands. White people in New Zealand bitching about the Maori people ignores the huge disparities in power structures. It's reprehensible to see supposedly intelligent people punching downwards. Third world respiratory diseases, terrible income security and cases of malnutrition run high in New Zealand, particularly amongst Maori, yet you're wringing your hands and swooning onto the fainting couch because a handful of them are rude to you. It really is quite a sight. You may as well come out with it and call them uppity for not knowing their place.

Sorry for having some sympathy with the underdog and sorry you found it pompous. Like I even give a toss.

Enjoy your weekend, weezerlady. We've agreed in the past, but not this time around.

barnsleymat

The people of Yorkshire, especially people from my home town have been shit on by the powers that be for decades by a whole succession of governments, the people have been treated appalling. Some of the poorest areas of the UK are in Yorkshire. Can you imagine if government departments, highly paid jobs, free university places etc were created that could only be taken by Yorkshire men and women.

I'd imagine it to be something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4tD2Hbg_A

And would a Yorkshireman ever moan and whinge about these fact, hell frigging yes we would, until we're blue in the face!!!!

Purrball

Hey, I quite enjoyed my visit for a couple of days to Hull and then other parts of Yorkshire. Some of my favourite people in the UK come from Yorkshire. Wicked sense of humour. Good beer, too. I can't do much about Westminster politics, though. To me, there's a weird surreal vibe about UK politics at the mo.


This is similar to arguments that take place in American politics regarding affirmative action. And I'm all for it, if only to help combat terrible institutional prejudice that holds people back on the account of the colour of their skin and who they were born to. One day, ideally, we won't need all that, but that day hasn't yet come.

We tend to turn a blind eye to other power structures that keep people out: the old-school tie, the good old-boys club, the golf club, business roundtables and so on. They're looking out for themselves and their kin as much as anyone... but they tend to hold most of the cards. Let's not forget that.

Anyway, it's late here in London and I have to finish off a project. This is my last post in this thread; I won't see or address any further replies as a sunny weekend calls, so for some, it's probably not worth wasting your breath at taking further potshots at me.

Hei konā rā.

DennisBergkamp

I live and work in NZ so am entitled to my opinion on matters as much as any Kiwi. If a Kiwi lives in the UK they can say what they want about the UK or wherever they live. Over a million people in NZ are born overseas. Are they not allowed to critique how things are run in NZ once in a while? I've been here 4 years, thats long enough to see how things work (or dont work)

I do find it funny how working in the 'public service' is regarded as some selfless service where you're meant to take crap from the public. That is definitely not the case for me. If anyone is rude to me, regardless of their race, nationality or gender, I have no interest in helping them and would purposely not help them if they are a dick to me. I wouldnt accept rudeness from the public in the UK so i dont see why i should here. I dont get paid to be a punchbag. I dont think anyone i work with sees a public service job as the peoples work. Its a job, that is all it is. I enjoy my work for the most part and i enjoy working with all people as long as they are polite. As soon as they cross the line then my willingness to help or listen is extinguished. I've had some White Kiwi folks be rude and i put them straight (easier face to face). I have had white Kiwi colleagues abused by Maori and they didnt stand for it, they confronted them on the issue. Why should they be exempt from being courteous and having manners?

Going back to both original incidents, i told the Maori callers to send an email if they didnt want to speak to a non-newzealander or to get someone else to their work for them if they had such an attitude problem. All of my colleagues thought the behavior of the Maori caller was unacceptable and there are quite a few off the scale lefties in my team.

In relation to the sweeping generalisation that i want NZ to be a little Britain, That is definitely not the case. I like NZ and i do like on the most part that it is a liberal country. The libs have done a lot of good, but in managing the relationship with Maori they have gone too far in the public sector. That is my main gripe. Welly is a very liberal place. I like how no one bats an eyelid at each other here in Welly. People can be free to express themselves and most people are extremely friendly. I know Maori have it rough. They are the bottom of society. Some affirmative action is needed, but done in the right way. For some Maori that will never be enough until they have a Gaza Strip like settlement in the Ureweras. That would not be an ideal solution. Reparations wont fix things. They'll be wasted (in some cases) on buying the Warriors Rugby team.

The NZ Govt could look the UK to manage things better in the public sector. Whenever a Black Minority Ethnic (BME) job is created in the UK, the job requirements are the same as any white applicant (except their colour) For example a BME History teacher would need a postgraduate qualification which is the standard industry expectation. So the person applying is more than capable of doing the job and its great that qualified BME applicants are given chances. Here in NZ, the bar is lowered. There are Maori staff in my workplace who are in Senior positions without having been to university. In one case a Maori staff member had work pay for their postgraduate course for which they were allowed to enter without having any undergraduate qualifications. These double standards breed resentment. If Maori staff are qualified enough then fair enough. But these examples from my workplace would be common across the public sector and i know many of my Kiwi colleagues share the same resentment as i do.

I came on here to see if other people have had the same experience. But also to highlight to newcomers to NZ or people thinking of moving to NZ that they will face reverse racism at somepoint whilst living in NZ. Its up to people how they deal with it. I have my ways which i wont be changing.

For the accusation i want NZ to be the last white haven and a throwback the good old days, well, that definitely is not the case as i am not white myself. I have no white heritage whatsoever.

scrubbedexpat094

Dennis.

Have been here 7+ years & have citizenship but woebetide me criticising anything Kiwi as I did a few months back on my FB page (The poor standard of driving). Then I'm just a "whingeing pom" & "should go back home". So boring.

Perhaps it would've been better if the British had decided not to agree to 'protect' Aotearoa from a possible French Invasion. Everyone would be speaking French now but at least there would be decent bread on sale . And yes, I'm being flippant!

Bo-Jangles

Mostly I sit on the fence and can see the issues from both points of view; I don't think it is unreasonable for people in a developed nation to expect equality and same treatment in workplace environment in 2014.

To this end I still fail to see how it can be fair, nor how NZ will ever move on when it only ever considers and forces upon others, the cultural aspects / tikanga of just one group of people. A lot of resentment is borne out of the special considerations that are necessary to appease past wrongdoing to Maori.

I don't think it's right for anyone to be subjected to religious material, prayer and hymns in a workplace environment and even far less correct that we pay lip service to and spend untold amounts of public money on protocols and paying for people to come and say these prayers, sing waiata and make speeches at dawn blessings and every opening of an envelope, because nobody else in the room even has a clue. Fair enough if it come naturally and that's what the people want to do - but most of it is forced upon those that probably don't care or don't actually want to hear it. It certainly doesn't help fix the real issues; the living conditions, health and wealth of the Maori population.

Bellasmum

Justcol

On the other hand, when I speak with them on the phone I usually try to palm em off on someone else
cos I cant understand a bloody they say !!

Assanah

Well, that is the thing with immigrants. They come from another culture, they usually don't have the same cultural sensitivities than the native population and if they come in greater number they will change their host country. If you think that Turkish immigrants in Germany will feel the same way about the German history than a "German" German you are plainly wrong. I am also pretty sure that many Asian or European immigrants to New Zealand will not care much about Maoris or old treaties. I for one didn't care much about the history but I do care about health inequalities in NZ now which are pretty rampant (never experienced any racism from Maoris though but met some weird white Kiwis).

Purrball

I lied.

My previous post wasn't my last one, but this one most definitely is as I feel I've made my feelings fairly clear. However, Bo-Jangles makes a few culturally-blind and dismissive points (in my opinion) that I sometimes hear which I'd like to try and have a tilt at and outline my understanding of the broader picture of New Zealand.

It's not the fault of Maori people if 'nobody else in the room has a clue' about protocols and ceremony or if people 'probably don't care or don't actually want to hear it' — all you have to do is take some interest in New Zealand's unique history and its people — and it certainly does help fix the real issues; the living conditions, health and wealth of the Maori population, as I'll explain.

First of all, the treaty essentially was a partnership. Even though Maori generally get the economically short end of the deal, their main goal, implied in the treaty's principles as indigenous first peoples is to ensure that their voices and unique culture remain right at the heart of the nation's activities so that they're not ignored, completely shunted aside, herded into reservations, or by the standards of colonial history, exterminated or enslaved.

It's not about guilt or appeasement, these are slightly-nasty culturally-loaded terms. It's about remaining visible and keeping the people, its traditions, culture and its practices alive as much as possible in custom and law, because if they're not relevant and can't speak to the present and future, then they can and will be marginalised even further.

If you take a broader view of European colonial activities and expansion, compared to Australia's aborigines for instance, the Maori have done a lot better because they've stood up for their rights under the treaty and their central place in the nation's consciousness. For some Maori and other Kiwis, they probably feel 'forced' to 'pay lip service and spend untold amounts of public money on protocols' when Prince William and the Duchess of Cambridge come to visit.

Visiting New Zealand after many years, in many places, on the surface, it struck me as some weird hybrid of Australia, the US and the UK, with cheap-looking ugly urban landscapes and suburban sprawl in many places. These are not the things that make New Zealand unique. To me, after living in the UK for 25 years, just visiting a marae just south of Tauranga felt pretty special... and generally, I've found many Maori are welcoming if you take an interest in their traditions and culture.

The haka, the koru, your whanau... all this and much more lie right at the heart of New Zealand. Those of us who went to primary school over there understand this as we were bought up on stories of Maui's canoe, the names of places, animals and birds and so much more.

I'm sorry if some feel 'forced' into something that they find uncomfortable. But that problem lies with them, I'm afraid. The Maori people, despite all their issues, will not be rolled so easily by other's indifference, apathy or hostility... and that's what it often come down to. After all, how many times have you seen threads on this forum about potential expats asking about New Zealand because of its history, people and traditions? In my short time here, never. It's always about the 'lifestyle', the scenery, larger houses or perhaps the weather, if they know much about New Zealand at all. That's what our stroppy Maori bloke, in his inartful and typically blunt Kiwi way, was probably getting at with the OP.

Good thread though, all views shared, makes a change from the endless cost of living queries. OK, I'm definitely done. Haha. Take it easy.

Laters.