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question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Old Jan 16th 2019, 8:55 am
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Default question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Just a quick question for those planning on coming over to escape Brexit.
What is it you are hoping to leave behind, and why do you think NZ will be different??

Just curious
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Old Jan 17th 2019, 7:57 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

I would say Brexit (if it ever comes to pass in any form it may take) would be small beer to the deranged Corbynista getting the vote.
Then you really will see them queuing up at AKL passport control ..




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Old Jan 17th 2019, 8:55 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by Justcol View Post
Just a quick question for those planning on coming over to escape Brexit.
What is it you are hoping to leave behind, and why do you think NZ will be different??

Just curious
Good question Col.

Is it just escaping all the news and media coverage?

What?
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Old Jan 17th 2019, 9:10 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

I just read an article today by the NY times which i feel accurately describes the incompetence of the way it is being dealt with and perhaps one of the reasons so many are tying to escape it.

The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

With Brexit, the chumocrats who drew borders from India to Ireland are getting a taste of their own medicine.

By Pankaj Mishra
Please click Spoiler to view entire article.

Spoiler:
Mr. Mishra is the author, most recently, of “Age of Anger: A History of the Present.”[list]
Jan. 17, 2019


Earl and Countess Mountbatten, behind naval and military members of the governor-general’s staff, walk down the steps of Government House in New Delhi, India, June 21, 1948.CreditAssociated Press



ImageEarl and Countess Mountbatten, behind naval and military members of the governor-general’s staff, walk down the steps of Government House in New Delhi, India, June 21, 1948.CreditCreditAssociated PressDescribing Britain’s calamitous exit from its Indian empire in 1947, the novelist Paul Scott wrote that in India the British “came to the end of themselves as they were” — that is, to the end of their exalted idea about themselves. Scott was among those shocked by how hastily and ruthlessly the British, who had ruled India for more than a century, condemned it to fragmentation and anarchy; how Louis Mountbatten, accurately described by the right-wing historian Andrew Roberts as a “mendacious, intellectually limited hustler,” came to preside, as the last British viceroy of India, over the destiny of some 400 million people.

Britain’s rupture with the European Union is proving to be another act of moral dereliction by the country’s rulers. The Brexiteers, pursuing a fantasy of imperial-era strength and self-sufficiency, have repeatedly revealed their hubris, mulishness and ineptitude over the past two years. Though originally a “Remainer,” Prime Minister Theresa May has matched their arrogant obduracy, imposing a patently unworkable timetable of two years on Brexit and laying down red lines that undermined negotiations with Brussels and doomed her deal to resoundingly bipartisan rejection this week in Parliament.

Such a pattern of egotistic and destructive behavior by the British elite flabbergasts many people today. But it was already manifest seven decades ago during Britain’s rash exit from India.ADVERTISEMENT


Mountbatten, derided as “Master of Disaster” in British naval circles, was a representative member of a small group of upper- and middle-class British men from which the imperial masters of Asia and Africa were recruited. Abysmally equipped for their immense responsibilities, they were nevertheless allowed by Britain’s brute imperial power to blunder through the world — a “world of whose richness and subtlety,” as E.M. Forster wrote in “Notes on the English Character,” they could “have no conception.”
From left seated at the table, Jawarharlal Nehru, vice president of India’s interim government; Earl Mountbatten, viceroy of India; and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, president of the Muslim League discuss Britain’s plan for India, June 2, 1947.CreditMax Desfor/Associated Press



ImageFrom left seated at the table, Jawarharlal Nehru, vice president of India’s interim government; Earl Mountbatten, viceroy of India; and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, president of the Muslim League discuss Britain’s plan for India, June 2, 1947.CreditMax Desfor/Associated PressForster blamed Britain’s political fiascos on its privately educated men, callow beneficiaries of the country’s elitist public school system. These eternal schoolboys whose “weight is out of all proportion” to their numbers are certainly overrepresented among Tories. They have today plunged Britain into its worst crisis, exposing its incestuous and self-serving ruling class like never before.

From David Cameron, who recklessly gambled his country’s future on a referendum in order to isolate some whingers in his Conservative party, to the opportunistic Boris Johnson, who jumped on the Brexit bandwagon to secure the prime ministerial chair once warmed by his role model Winston Churchill, and the top-hatted, theatrically retro Jacob Rees-Mogg, whose fund management company has set up an office within the European Union even as he vehemently scorns it, the British political class has offered to the world an astounding spectacle of mendacious, intellectually limited hustlers.



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Subscribe to The TimesEven a columnist for The Economist, an organ of the British elite, now professes dismay over “Oxford chums” who coast through life on “bluff rather than expertise.” “Britain,” the magazine belatedly lamented last month, “is governed by a self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.” In Brexit, the British “chumocracy,” the column declared, “has finally met its Waterloo.”

It is actually more accurate, for those invoking British history, to say that partition — the British Empire’s ruinous exit strategy — has come home. In a grotesque irony, borders imposed in 1921 on Ireland, England’s first colony, have proved to be the biggest stumbling block for the English Brexiteers chasing imperial virility. Moreover, Britain itself faces the prospect of partition if Brexit, a primarily English demand, is achieved and Scottish nationalists renew their call for independence.

It is a measure of English Brexiteers’ political acumen that they were initially oblivious to the volatile Irish question and contemptuous of the Scottish one. Ireland was cynically partitioned to ensure that Protestant settlers outnumber native Catholics in one part of the country. The division provoked decades of violence and consumed thousands of lives. It was partly healed in 1998, when a peace agreement removed the need for security checks along the British-imposed partition line.

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The re-imposition of a customs and immigration regime along Britain’s only land border with the European Union was always likely to be resisted with violence. But Brexiteers, awakening late to this ominous possibility, have tried to deny it. A leaked recording revealed Mr. Johnson scorning concerns about the border as “pure millennium bug stuff.”

Politicians and journalists in Ireland are understandably aghast over the aggressive ignorance of English Brexiteers. Business people everywhere are outraged by their cavalier disregard for the economic consequences of new borders. But none of this would surprise anyone who knows of the unconscionable breeziness with which the British ruling class first drew lines through Asia and Africa and then doomed the people living across them to endless suffering.

The malign incompetence of the Brexiteers was precisely prefigured during Britain’s exit from India in 1947, most strikingly in the lack of orderly preparation for it. The British government had announced that India would have independence by June 1948. In the first week of June 1947, however, Mountbatten suddenly proclaimed that the transfer of power would happen on Aug. 15, 1947 — a “ludicrously early date,” as he himself blurted out. In July, a British lawyer named Cyril Radcliffe was entrusted with the task of drawing new boundaries of a country he had never previously visited.

Given only around five weeks to invent the political geography of an India flanked by an eastern and a western wing called Pakistan, Radcliffe failed to visit any villages, communities, rivers or forests along the border he planned to demarcate. Dividing agricultural hinterlands from port cities, and abruptly reducing Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs on either side of the new border to a religious minority, Radcliffe delivered a plan for partition that effectively sentenced millions to death or desolation while bringing him the highest-ranked knighthood.

Up to one million people died, countless women were abducted and raped, and the world’s largest refugee population was created during the population transfers across Radcliffe’s border — an extensive carnage that exceeds all apocalyptic scenarios of Brexit.

In retrospect, Mountbatten had even less reason than Mrs. May to speed up the exit clock — and create insoluble and eternal problems. Just a few months after the botched partition, for instance, India and Pakistan were fighting a war over the disputed territory of Kashmir. None of the concerned parties were pushing for a hasty British exit. As the historian Alex von Tunzelmann points out, “the rush was Mountbatten’s, and his alone.”

Mountbatten was actually less pigheaded than Winston Churchill, whose invocation stiffens the spines of many Brexiteers today. Churchill, a fanatical imperialist, worked harder than any British politician to thwart Indian independence and, as prime minister from 1940 to 1945, did much to compromise it. Seized by a racist fantasy about superior Anglo-Americans, he refused to help Indians cope with famine in 1943 on the grounds that they “breed like rabbits.”

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Needless to say, such ravings issued from an ignorance about India as intractable as that of the Brexiteers about Ireland. Churchill’s own secretary of state for India claimed that his boss knew “as much of the Indian problem as George III did of the American colonies.” Churchill displayed in his long career a similarly imperial insouciance toward Ireland, sending countless young Irishmen to their deaths in a catastrophic military fiasco at Gallipoli, Turkey, during World War I and unleashing brutal paramilitaries against Irish nationalists in 1920.

The many crimes of the empire’s bumptious adventurers were enabled by Britain’s great geopolitical power and then obscured by its cultural prestige. This is why images cherished by the British elite of itself as valiant, wise and benevolent could survive, until recently, much damning historical evidence about these masters of disaster from Cyprus to Malaysia, Palestine to South Africa. In recent years, such privately educated and smooth-tongued men as Niall Ferguson and Tony Blair could even present the British as saviors of suffering and benighted humanity, urging American neoconservatives to take up the white man’s burden globally.

Humiliations in neo-imperialist ventures abroad, followed by the rolling calamity of Brexit at home, have cruelly exposed the bluff of what Hannah Arendt called the “quixotic fools of imperialism.” As partition comes home, threatening bloodshed in Ireland and secession in Scotland, and an unimaginable chaos of no-deal Brexit looms, ordinary British people stand to suffer from the untreatable exit wounds once inflicted by Britain’s bumbling chumocrats on millions of Asians and Africans. More ugly historical ironies may yet waylay Britain on its treacherous road to Brexit. But it is safe to say that a long-cossetted British ruling class has finally come to the end of itself as it was.

Pankaj Mishra is the author, most recently, of “Age of Anger: A History of the Present.”

Last edited by BEVS; Jan 17th 2019 at 10:47 pm. Reason: rather long + copy and paste article so quote and spoiler
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Old Jan 17th 2019, 9:13 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

TLR
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Old Jan 17th 2019, 9:39 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by paddy234 View Post
I just read an article today by the NY times which i feel accurately describes the incompetence of the way it is being dealt with and perhaps one of the reasons so many are tying to escape it.
Originally Posted by article

The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

With Brexit, the chumocrats who drew borders from India to Ireland are getting a taste of their own medicine
.
So do you then think that people are wanting to escape their own choices then or the choices of others ?

By that I mean the referendum for the UK to leave the EU.
Also their own successive governments/MPs which they elect in/out?


The thread is about the reasons folks are thinking to emigrate to NZ and leave the UK due to Brexit. I am mindful of that & to not take the topic off course in this to yet another brexit for/against debate which BE has a-plenty.

So. Is it those that voted to remain that now seek to emigrate as far away as poss ?
Or those that voted to leave now seeking to emigrate now they see how such an exit evolves and what is involved ?
Or those that may have voted either way or not at all that are now concerned in some way.

What are the concerns ?
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Old Jan 17th 2019, 10:09 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
So do you then think that people are wanting to escape their own choices then or the choices of others ?

By that I mean the referendum for the UK to leave the EU.
Also their own successive governments/MPs which they elect in/out?


The thread is about the reasons folks are thinking to emigrate to NZ and leave the UK due to Brexit. I am mindful of that & to not take the topic off course in this to yet another brexit for/against debate which BE has a-plenty.

So. Is it those that voted to remain that now seek to emigrate as far away as poss ?
Or those that voted to leave now seeking to emigrate now they see how such an exit evolves and what is involved ?
Or those that may have voted either way or not at all that are now concerned in some way.

What are the concerns ?

I think it is a combination of both, the remain voters will certainly be more attracted to leave and go abroad as they are afraid of being trapped in a country they will no longer recognize whose views they don't share. The leave voters which i think this article describes well are now actually worried that their politicians who promised them a easy transition and a more prosperous nation are actually so incompetent that they going to sabotage any deal which would be disastrous. I feel many of these people will be more inclined to leave the UK if they continue to be convinced that the actions of MP's will not provide the sort of Brexit they were promised
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Old Jan 18th 2019, 5:52 am
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

But how can they expect the Brexit they were promised when most of the promises where based on lies.?

My husband bought us over back in 2012 because of what he saw as further problems for the UK because of the powers that be. He was actually looking at Australia but after 6 months of going through the application he pulled the plug on that because of Australian Government and how they were running Australia. Now NZ seemed ok to him as its Government didn't seem to be doing, err well, much at all really at that time.
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Old Jan 18th 2019, 8:03 am
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by MrsFychan View Post
But how can they expect the Brexit they were promised when most of the promises where based on lies.?

My husband bought us over back in 2012 because of what he saw as further problems for the UK because of the powers that be. He was actually looking at Australia but after 6 months of going through the application he pulled the plug on that because of Australian Government and how they were running Australia. Now NZ seemed ok to him as its Government didn't seem to be doing, err well, much at all really at that time.
Most people didn't think them to be lies at the time which is why they voted the way they did, as more people wake up to this fact they are more likely to become disheartened by the direction the UK is headed. It's not a nice thing when someone becomes so disheartened they feel they are better off migrating. I wonder if migration here from the UK will swell considerably and i'd be keen to see how the NZ government reacts to it if it did
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Old Jan 19th 2019, 12:22 am
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Assuming Theresa May won't find support, which seems likely, and Bank of England's forecast for a no-deal scenario is correct I expect we'll see more interest if the UK actually exits the EU. Until then any impact will likely be very limited.

Personally I believe the UK will delay making a final decision on article 50 (i.e. beyond March), probably waiting until the subsequent election or referendum has taken place. There is a democratic dichotomy where the referendum outcome is at odds with the current stated views of elected MPs and those are the only two ways of resolving that difference. The fundamental issue was, subsequent to the referendum, there was no prevailing societal nor political consensus reached.

My feeling is that the best option for brexit proponents would be as a second (binding) referendum on three options (i.e. Out, EU deal or In) as they could split the vote. It seems unlikely that they would ever win support via parliament.
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Old Jan 19th 2019, 10:23 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by Charismatic View Post
Assuming Theresa May won't find support, which seems likely, and Bank of England's forecast for a no-deal scenario is correct I expect we'll see more interest if the UK actually exits the EU. Until then any impact will likely be very limited.

Personally I believe the UK will delay making a final decision on article 50 (i.e. beyond March), probably waiting until the subsequent election or referendum has taken place. There is a democratic dichotomy where the referendum outcome is at odds with the current stated views of elected MPs and those are the only two ways of resolving that difference. The fundamental issue was, subsequent to the referendum, there was no prevailing societal nor political consensus reached.

My feeling is that the best option for brexit proponents would be as a second (binding) referendum on three options (i.e. Out, EU deal or In) as they could split the vote. It seems unlikely that they would ever win support via parliament.

The first referendum was binding. It was simple... do you want to leave or remain?..... not do you want to leave or remain under circumstances to be agreed later.
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Old Jan 19th 2019, 10:37 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

I was hoping to hear from hopeful migrants, not just to have yet another he said, she said boring, back and forward pointless argument about should they stay or should they go and who's to blame

Last edited by Justcol; Jan 19th 2019 at 10:53 pm.
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Old Jan 20th 2019, 8:09 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by Justcol View Post
Just a quick question for those planning on coming over to escape Brexit.
What is it you are hoping to leave behind, and why do you think NZ will be different??

Just curious
It’s a usual troll post from Colin. You have to remember he’s from/dragged up in Manc so everything is slightly skewed since he’s acquired a ‘plot’ in SI. What a hero xx
Ps as an aside a ‘Colin’ in Uk as a ‘Derek’ is in Oz 🤣

Last edited by Droidling; Jan 20th 2019 at 8:19 pm.
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Old Jan 20th 2019, 10:01 pm
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

To be fair, I have seen a number of would-be immigrants writing that this brexit thing was a motivation to emigrate away from the UK.
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Old Jan 21st 2019, 6:48 am
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Default re: question for those looking to emigrate to NZ from the UK - re. Brexit

Originally Posted by BEVS View Post
To be fair, I have seen a number of would-be immigrants writing that this brexit thing was a motivation to emigrate away from the UK.
And I was hoping to hear from them, but never mind.
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