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One way, or another? Roundabouts

One way, or another? Roundabouts

Old Mar 9th 2016, 7:37 am
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Default One way, or another? Roundabouts

Is it really so difficult to understand?

Mass roundabout indicator fail: no-one seems to know why we get it wrong | Stuff.co.nz
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 7:53 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Oh you should know by now, roundabouts involve using indicators. Those switches beside the wheel that the Nigel Mansells here don't know how to use.

Speaking of roundabouts, i'm dreading the number of accidents on the new Memorial Avenue roundabout that's starting on the 20th March. No doubt our local media will put the blame on tourists since it's one of the main exits from the airport. Local mechanic shops round Wairakei are going to get busier and busier with repairs.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 8:36 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Originally Posted by Bo-Jangles View Post
Is it really so difficult to understand?
you live in new zealand, did you really have to ask ??

They haven't mastered driving in a straight line without running into power poles yet
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 9:35 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

I had to laugh most at the 600 comments debating why the rules make no sense, or are stupid and too complicated. Seems more accidents will be caused if people have to think too hard or are grappling with their indicators whilst going around the roundabout.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 10:11 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

I don't want to dance around the issue but if the indicators are too complicated to use it's likely that the root of the problem is that the driver is just too simple to drive. Perhaps driving a car isn't for everyone? It wouldn't be that difficult to set up cameras to catch people.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 1:07 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

The belief, imported form the US, that everyone should be allowed to drive needs to be exposed as a con. At least 50 percent of the population are incapable of learning how to drive.. I am one of them !
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 1:18 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Are you guys really in NZ, or actually in the US just pretending to be NZ.

The US is only slowly coming around to the benefits of roundabouts, but the numbers are steadily increasing, and where they have been in place for several years people have mostly got used to the idea of free-flow traffic and don't try to treat a roundabout as a four-way stop.

Unfortunately not everyone is fully comfortable slotting between moving vehicles, nor with the fact that a vehicle coming from the far side of the roundabout necessarily blocks traffic entering from the right (RHD countries), and so gives you an opportunity to enter the roundabout without getting in anyone's way.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 6:38 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Originally Posted by Bo-Jangles View Post
Apparently yes judging from the number of drivers I see getting it wrong on a daily basis. I've even seen the police get it wrong
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

“People can argue all they want whether the rule is sensible or not…”

- Well…not really . For efficient and safe operation people need to follow the rules.

“And here we go with more "kiwi" complaining about driving. The most over policed nation on its roads in the entire world it's our NO 1 ISSUE! Bar none! Driving in New Zealand is a constant test making sure you are not infringing in the thousands of minor ways which can net you a crippling ticket! Get a life New Zealand”

- Is ‘crippling’ actually a form of punishment for traffic violations now? Seems harsh but in your case I’m going to say…also very fair . There is like a whole book of rules now, like literally a whole book filled with rules that like you must follow if you like want to drive.

“I understand the rules around a big roundabouts like Greenlane, but the rules are a bit harder to follow in the suburbs where it takes about 3 seconds.”

- People usually slow the vehicle before entering a roundabout.

“Kiwi drivers ignore this convention (law) because it's an ASS ! Why don't they insist that we wave a red flag out the window while we nogotiate a round about? Idiot law makers ! As tr8080 points out, it is difficult and sometimes impossible to make a car's indicator switch operate in the left turn mode, while the wheel is being held to the right. Just indicate for the exit you intend to take, as you approach the intersection. It's not rocket science... Unless you are a beaurocrat that is ! What a waste of time even talking about this !”

- I refuse to believe that Kiwis find cars more ergonomically challenging than drivers in other countries around the globe .

“ The roundabouts in levin are so small and pointless that there is no reason to indicate unless you are actually going round them and not just though them in a straight line and no one in this town knows how to use them most just stop and wait till there's no other car in sight…”

- Paradox alarm. First you argue there is no need to use turn signals and then complain that that no one takes heed of the signals other drivers are not using. It’s like a circle of logic we can never escape…unless we all agree to use indicators.

“I'll just put my hazard lights on when I'm going straight through from now on. Makes more sense...”

- Definitely. In fact leave them on all the time for the rest of us would you?

“it amazes me that cars haven't yet gotten to the point of automatic indicating…”

- Telepathy will no doubt be a feature of cars in the future. I applaud this mans foresight.

“It was implemented in early 2005 from memory…”

- Well it’s been a legal requirement since 2005 so people have had about a decade not to adjust to it being a legal requirement.

“It's a load of crap signalling at a roundabout. My wife nearly had a collision wrestling with the steering wheel and fumbling for the indicator at the same time. Just make it illegal to overtake on a roundabout and stay behind the car in front. Simple.”

- There is no actual rule against using both hands while driving . In fact they put the stalks behind the wheel so you don’t even have to remove your hand(s) from the wheel.

“Instead of wasting money on a 'study' to determine cause - why not be pro-active and run regular public service campaigns during ad breaks on TV to remind people of the road rules?”

- I don’t believe most people forget what the indicators are for once they finish their driving test.

“These examples are two-lane roundabouts - Geez, On small ones this logic is pointless.”

- Actually the logic works much the same way regardless of the number of lanes or diameter of the roundabout?

“People can't indicate because they are too busy texting and drinking coffee - no hand left for the indicator”

- Actually…I can’t fault this logic. It can be difficult to roll a cigarette, drink a coffee and text while driving but it is the Kiwi way.


“all of the right signal indicating is really just nonsense. It makes no difference to anyone…”

- Except people looking to enter/on the roundabout at the same time your car is from another exit. It might make a difference to them if they can enter or if you are going to drive into the side of their car.

“The sheer fact that so many people get it wrong 'indicates' how stupid the rules are. Let common sense prevail!”

- …and it did, that’s why we adopted standardised rules .
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Old Mar 10th 2016, 3:05 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

I wish there was "A most excellent post" Charismatic.

The man whose wife nearly had an accident whilst wrestling with the steering wheel and fumbling with the indicator, just shouldn't be on the road. I'm surprised that she manages to get out of bed if she's so incompetent .
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Old Mar 10th 2016, 7:08 am
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Smile Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

It does exercise me Vitals.

I thought I'd misunderstood the guys post until I reread it. Of course we cannot verify this account of events with "his wife" if you know what I mean .

Did like the idea of crippling being an actual legal penalty for traffic offenses. Just that the police could give you a dead leg and tell you to walk home or deep bruise on your arse so you would be reminded of your offense every time your car went over a bump. Probably against some human rights charter thing however as it's not very ethical and at some point you will have to make an admission of your arse bruises to your spouse which may either lead to being slapped on the arse every time you have your back turned or raise questions about your recreational activities .
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Old Mar 10th 2016, 7:43 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Originally Posted by Charismatic View Post
It does exercise me Vitals.

I thought I'd misunderstood the guys post until I reread it. Of course we cannot verify this account of events with "his wife" if you know what I mean .

Did like the idea of crippling being an actual legal penalty for traffic offenses. Just that the police could give you a dead leg and tell you to walk home or deep bruise on your arse so you would be reminded of your offense every time your car went over a bump. Probably against some human rights charter thing however as it's not very ethical and at some point you will have to make an admission of your arse bruises to your spouse which may either lead to being slapped on the arse every time you have your back turned or raise questions about your recreational activities .
Having read some of the comments ( I had to give up after a while as my sanity was very nearly in question) I also liked the crippling penalty. Though I'm thinking that the treatment given to the Black Knight in "MP and the Holy Grail" would be even more preferable
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Old Mar 10th 2016, 10:20 am
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

This from the UK Highway Code

"
Highway Code for Roundabouts
26/9/2014 60 COMMENTS

It is fair to say that roundabouts are one of the hardest sections of the Highway Code for beginners to master. Make sure you read through this page a few times until you completely understand it. If you are learning to drive and have any questions, be sure to note them down and ask your driving instructor next time you have a lesson.

Section 184
Section 184 of the Highway Code is all about what to do when approaching a roundabout. To ensure you approach roundabouts safely you should look out for traffic signs, traffic lights and lane markings, all of which will help you to prepare for manoeuvring around the roundabout and identifying the correct lane.

When approaching a roundabout you should:
  • Use the mirror-signal-manoeuvre process
  • Decide which exit you need to take as early as possible
  • Use the appropriate signal at the optimal time to inform other road users of your intentions
  • Get into the correct lane
  • Adjust your speed and position to the traffic conditions
  • Remain aware of the speed and position of the traffic around you

Section 185
Section 185 explains what you should do when you reach the roundabout. Again it is important to be aware of the traffic around you and look out for road users who may be signalling incorrectly or in some cases not signalling at all!

When reaching a roundabout you should:
  • Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
  • Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
  • Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
  • Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout

Section 186

This section of the Highway Code explains the signals and positions required to exit a roundabout safely. Follow the rules and you will find maneuvering roundabouts to be much less stressful.

When taking the first exit (unless signs and markings indicate otherwise):
  • Signal left and approach the exit in the left hand lane
  • Keep to the left on the roundabout and signal left to leave

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
  • Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
  • Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
  • Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take

When taking any intermediate exit (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
  • Select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout
  • Stay in the lane until you need to alter your lane to exit
  • Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take
"

All seems pretty sensible, and much as I vaguely remember when I took my test in {mumblemumblecough} or thereabouts.

However there are a couple of things.

Firstly, I have a strong (but perhaps inaccurate) memory that they changed the rules a good while back - so that there were only two options.
  1. If you are turning left, indicate left
  2. For any other exit, indicate right until you approach that exit, then indicate left
This addresses issue (2) below.

Secondly, the current rules as stated above are ambiguous when you are for example dealing with a roundabout with more than 4 exits, or one where the "straight on" is slightly to the left or right, or where the exits are all to the left of "straight on".

This could get complicated

So, treating a symmetrical roundabout as a 360 degree circle with straight on at 180 degrees, left at 90 degrees, right at 270 degrees the current rules work nicely.
[That is, for example, if there is only one left exit between 1 degree and 179 degrees.]

However where there are two left exits are at say 45 degrees and 135 degrees life becomes more difficult. You signal left for the first exit (obviously) but how do you signal to show you are going past the second exit then straight on?

By the current rules you don't signal for any turn less than the 180 degree straight on until you approach it, so people waiting at the second exit to join the roundabout have no idea if you are turning or carrying on round until you do one or the other. So it isn't safe for them to join the roundabout.

The previous rules which I think I remember do address this - you are signalling right as you go past the first two exits then signal left. So other drivers know what your intentions are.

However this other rule causes confusion in the idealised 90/180/270 degree roundabout.

You approach the roundabout intending to go straight on, but the old rules say you must indicate right because you are intending to pass the first junction. So you are indicating right until you suddenly indicate left and people coming the other way have no idea if it is safe for them to join the roundabout until the very last minute (or never if there is a stream of traffic).

I think that this caused more problems in the more common situation of people going straight on than it solved in the less common situations, but at the moment I can't find any old copies of the Highway Code to confirm the changes. I know that when behaviour changed it caused me loads of frustration because the way I had been taught was no longer used (or, more correctly, you could tell the generation of a driver by how they approached a roundabout).

So I do have some sympathy with people struggling over which rules to follow, but the answer is not to avoid using indicators.

My humble offering:

If, when entering a roundabout, you intend to pass more than two exits, then indicate right until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take, then indicate left.

Seems to cover both cases, and removes the "false right indication" which has annoyed me for years!
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Old Mar 10th 2016, 12:06 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Originally Posted by LittleGreyCat View Post
..... Secondly, the current rules as stated above are ambiguous when you are for example dealing with a roundabout with more than 4 exits, or one where the "straight on" is slightly to the left or right, or where the exits are all to the left of "straight on".

This could get complicated

So, treating a symmetrical roundabout as a 360 degree circle with straight on at 180 degrees, left at 90 degrees, right at 270 degrees the current rules work nicely.
[That is, for example, if there is only one left exit between 1 degree and 179 degrees.]

However where there are two left exits are at say 45 degrees and 135 degrees life becomes more difficult. You signal left for the first exit (obviously) but how do you signal to show you are going past the second exit then straight on?

By the current rules you don't signal for any turn less than the 180 degree straight on until you approach it, so people waiting at the second exit to join the roundabout have no idea if you are turning or carrying on round until you do one or the other. So it isn't safe for them to join the roundabout.

The previous rules which I think I remember do address this - you are signalling right as you go past the first two exits then signal left. So other drivers know what your intentions are.

However this other rule causes confusion in the idealised 90/180/270 degree roundabout.

You approach the roundabout intending to go straight on, but the old rules say you must indicate right because you are intending to pass the first junction. So you are indicating right until you suddenly indicate left and people coming the other way have no idea if it is safe for them to join the roundabout until the very last minute (or never if there is a stream of traffic).

I think that this caused more problems in the more common situation of people going straight on than it solved in the less common situations, but at the moment I can't find any old copies of the Highway Code to confirm the changes. I know that when behaviour changed it caused me loads of frustration because the way I had been taught was no longer used (or, more correctly, you could tell the generation of a driver by how they approached a roundabout).

So I do have some sympathy with people struggling over which rules to follow, but the answer is not to avoid using indicators.

My humble offering:

If, when entering a roundabout, you intend to pass more than two exits, then indicate right until you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take, then indicate left.

Seems to cover both cases, and removes the "false right indication" which has annoyed me for years!
Good advice for what people should do with their indicators, in an ideal world. As a practical point for dealing with the ambiguity of when and where a car that is not signaling will leave the roundabout, I was taught by driving instructor to watch the car's front wheels, you will see them turn to exit a roundabout (or make any other turn) before the body moves enough to make the same determination. It sounds weird, but once you have noticed this, it always seems like an eternity between the wheels turning and the body following-suit.
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Old Mar 12th 2016, 10:11 pm
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Default Re: One way, or another? Roundabouts

Last week I was driving behind a car which came up to a very small roundabout. She just stopped and waited for everyone else to go before she braved it!

Unfortunately roundabouts aren't as common here as in the UK so a lot of people get quite anxious when they approach one. I have twice been asked by out-of-towners to take over driving in Auckland. Since I used to drive in London, I don't find Auckland traffic so bad.
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