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NZ - poverty myth.

NZ - poverty myth.

Old Nov 30th 2005, 1:40 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by melting pot
You had stated in a previous post that to have a take home of less than $1000 would be pushing the povo line....so maybe the expression of poverty has changed its meaning to you ...
You are mixing up two different concepts. 1. genuine poverty. 2. poverty as perceived by myself.

The second concept is simply based on what I consider to be enough for a minimum quality of life in terms of living needs, food, cars, entertainment, education etc for my family and me. That runs at about $1000 per week spending money, ie a NZD salary of about $75,000.

To feel comfortably off we'd need quite a bit more.

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Old Nov 30th 2005, 2:03 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by auldduck
You are mixing up two different concepts. 1. genuine poverty. 2. poverty as perceived by myself.

The second concept is simply based on what I consider to be enough for a minimum quality of life in terms of living needs, food, cars, entertainment, education etc for my family and me. That runs at about $1000 per week spending money, ie a NZD salary of about $75,000.

To feel comfortably off we'd need quite a bit more.

cheers - Quackers
I agree totally with the above.

There is also a difference between genuine poverty, as experienced in the third world, and poverty in the Western World. In rich countries, everyone has enough money to survive even if they have to live frugally. Of course, a lot of poverty in the rich countries is also arguably self-inflicted; that is to say, that a lot of people living in 'rough' and deprived areas are the cause of their own area's downfall. This is because such things can often be directly attributed to poor parental discipline, laziness (including the parents choosing to be unemployed) or the general lack of responsibility existing within the local community.


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Last edited by tottefan; Nov 30th 2005 at 2:06 am.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 2:36 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by tottefan
There is also a difference between genuine poverty, as experienced in the third world, and poverty in the Western World.
Don't be a pillock, the issue is nowhere near that cut and dried. Just because a westerner (i.e: one who lives in the western world) doesn't live in a cardboard shanty town, it doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't below the poverty line. Poverty does not just exist in the so-called third world. Poverty exists everywhere, even the western world, in greater or lesser amounts.

In rich countries, everyone has enough money to survive even if they have to live frugally.
Oh FFS Yes, you're absolutely right, if you can literally just afford to feed yourself for most of the month, you're not in poverty, right? When we first got here, yes we lived in a relatively nice area and yes, i didn't have a job but our house leaked like a sieve and for the last week and a half in every month we ate what was left in the cupboards because we couldn't afford to do anything else. We had to sublet a room in our house because we actually couldn't afford the rent (despite having done the sums with the info we had at the time and thinking we could - the COL differences strike again...) but it was all we could find with the limited time we had to look for a place when we arrived. And were we in poverty? No, of course not, we could have chosen to take a shitty house somewhere skanky and have afforded to live a bit better. But, there are a shitload of people in every country in this world who are far far worse off than we were at that point and they do live in shitty state housing, they are bringing up a family of six kids and they do only have one sub-minimum-wage paycheck coming in every month. If you can tell me that that isn't a serious form of very real poverty, i'll eat my ****ing hat.

For those people living in rural areas of NZ that are in that boat - they DON'T have mains sewerage, or water, or electricity in many cases and they DO live in tiny tin huts.

Of course, a lot of poverty in the rich countries is also arguably self-inflicted; that is to say, that a lot of people living in 'rough' and deprived areas are the cause of their own area's downfall. This is because such things can often be directly attributed to poor parental discipline, laziness (including the parents choosing to be unemployed) or the general lack of responsibility existing within the local community.
While I can't actually disagree with some of this, you've expressed an incredibly naive and narrow-minded view. A lot of it is to do with socioeconomics and simple deprivation geographics. When cities expand, as an area starts to be 'up and coming' the people that were living there tend to get forced out because the shitty houses are being knocked down to make way for new housing that they can't afford and they are effectively driven out. This has happened in Auckland, the shittier areas have become better and the rougher areas have migrated outwards, further away from the city centre and into the areas that no-one wants to live in - under the pylons, next to the motorway, bordering heavy industry etc etc. Those people that live there don't want to ****ing live there, they were happy where they were, they just can't afford to live anywhere else. It happens all over the world - the lower socioeconomic groups are effectively herded to where they are out of sight, out of mind. Look at the Aboriginies in Oz - when the Sydney olympics happened, many of the Aboriginies in Sydney were told that if they moved to Darwin (the ass end of the middle of ****ing nowhere) they'd be given a house to live in free of charge. And when many of them told the authorities to get stuffed, they were told that if they didn't go, their rents and rates would go up so much that they'd be out on the street anyway. So a lot of them went. In Darwin they live in compounds, like prisoners. And Darwin is like it's very own prison considering the climate - it rains for 6 months apparently and then is so hot that you can't really go outside for six months. Sounds great, i'd love to live there...

Now that's what I call out of sight, out of mind...
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 3:38 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

NZ climber, am i missing something or are you trying to make out your in poverty?(please bare with me as i am rather thick!)

Having spent time in India, and having travelled the length and width of NZ, South Auckland to the most rural of areas, i see nothing here that defines poverty in comparrison to what i saw as normal life in India.The scale is so far forward here and poor in India it makes this very conversation seem pompus.
I don't see many domestic cats on the gutter side dinning table anywhere in NZ.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 5:06 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

I have to take issue with some of the signs of poverty used earlier in this thread. In sparsely populated areas it doesn't make sense to pipe mains water everywhere - nor to pipe waste water away. I spent my childhood in NZ in two different houses on the edge of a Canterbury town; in both cases we had a well, a pressurised storage tank, and an automatic electric pump. And I'd drink that water before the recycled, chlorinated crap you get in the UK any day. Did you know that Lndon water passes trhough the system three times between rain and sea - ie what you're drinking there has been drunk, pissed and cleaned up twice before it gets to you?
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 5:18 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

An interesting link

HERE

I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.

No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.

It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.

Last edited by BEVS; Nov 30th 2005 at 5:30 am. Reason: to add about water.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 5:40 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by Apollo10
An interesting link

HERE

I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.

No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.

It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.
Another link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/398666.stm
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 5:50 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by lapsed kiwi
I have to take issue with some of the signs of poverty used earlier in this thread. In sparsely populated areas it doesn't make sense to pipe mains water everywhere - nor to pipe waste water away. I spent my childhood in NZ in two different houses on the edge of a Canterbury town; in both cases we had a well, a pressurised storage tank, and an automatic electric pump. And I'd drink that water before the recycled, chlorinated crap you get in the UK any day. Did you know that Lndon water passes trhough the system three times between rain and sea - ie what you're drinking there has been drunk, pissed and cleaned up twice before it gets to you?
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
Exactly.
Uk has 'y' number of people to finance 'x' amount of roads
NZ has 'y/15' number of people to finance 'x times 1.5' number of roads.

You do the math.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 5:52 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by ElizabethC
I hear what you are saying...I dont think Tit for Tat is the approach to take....The Thread is about NZ...and yes you can say...but look at the UK...You will find many Brits that would be able to have a conversation with you and give you a list of things wrong with it longer than as a Kiwi you can.
I love the UK...I love NZ ( The scenery bit )....but can say there are many things that are not right about either....can you ??
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 6:13 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by kelvynd
Exactly.
Uk has 'y' number of people to finance 'x' amount of roads
NZ has 'y/15' number of people to finance 'x times 1.5' number of roads.

You do the math.
Why....cant you add up
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 7:48 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by melting pot
I hear what you are saying...I dont think Tit for Tat is the approach to take....The Thread is about NZ...and yes you can say...but look at the UK...You will find many Brits that would be able to have a conversation with you and give you a list of things wrong with it longer than as a Kiwi you can.
I love the UK...I love NZ ( The scenery bit )....but can say there are many things that are not right about either....can you ??
Not knocking the UK - just pointing out child poverty is reported everywhere. And, I satrted to wonder, how valuable are statistics? If I was to measure a child in relation to poverty I'd probably ask is the child healthy, is he/she happy, disease/infection free, and do they have access to learning. It just got me thinking about poverty is all.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 8:01 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by ElizabethC
Not knocking the UK - just pointing out child poverty is reported everywhere. And, I satrted to wonder, how valuable are statistics? If I was to measure a child in relation to poverty I'd probably ask is the child healthy, is he/she happy, disease/infection free, and do they have access to learning. It just got me thinking about poverty is all.
well taking each one of those indicators in turn....

- healthy - asthma is a major issue in nz cities due to air pollution particularly in in auckland and chch. take a look at the freckled complexions of most locals to see the damage the sun does to skin from an early age.

- happy - thats a pretty individual thing and very hard to generalise about. i have seen the poverty in india and i can tell you the children in india have the biggest smiles i have ever seen so im not sure the two are mutually exclusive

- disease/infection - check the stats on meningitus b in NZ. Also compare the government preparedness for vaccinations against avian flu (if you believe the hype)/(when such as vaccine is feasible) with other developed nations. also take a look at the health service and the cost of healthcare. is it free at the point of delivery? check you local GP's policy on charging for child consultations (free by law but not enforced).

- access to learning - the quality of your education is linked directly to your wealth through the "zone" of your home. Extra curricular education is also linked to your wealth by virtue of the price of books.
 
Old Nov 30th 2005, 8:05 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

An old post about the poor in CHCH

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.

More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any money into setting up a new home with rental bonds and other expenses to escape domestic violence. Delta communities support trust manager Tony Mc Cahon says hikes in electricity and rents while benefits remain static had shrunk food budgets. Other expenditures can only come out of the very small food budgets that our struggling, disadvantaged families try to survive on, he said. It is not uncommon for a family of 6 to living weekly on food and clothing budget of only $60. This means that any unexpected bills causes a crisis. There is no extra money. Christmas could be a very traumatic experience for the 1800 families and individuals on the food bank database. It often rekindles unhappy childhood memories along with the lack of money to buy presents for children, and the fact that they cannot choose to take a holiday. Delta hope to distribute 70 food packs to disadvantaged families this Christmas, 20 more than before. Its quite heart breaking for us having to choose which family will receive one, we're still hoping funds will come in. As little as $35 buys a special Christmas food parcel ( at discounted prices). Donations can be dropped at 105 North Avon Road or sent to Delta, PO Box 26019. The trust has served the disadvantaged since 1995. The methodist mission could not be reached but it is under stood that only advocacy clients would receive Christmas supplies this year.
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Old Nov 30th 2005, 8:19 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

God I felt really awful reading that.

I'm going to hunt out the local collection agencies for food parcels in this area and see what we can contribute.
 
Old Nov 30th 2005, 8:32 am
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Default Re: NZ - poverty myth.

Originally Posted by Lenmil
An old post about the poor in CHCH

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.

More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP.
Is there a way do donate from UK?
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