NZ - poverty myth.
Nov 30th 2005, 12:40 am
#46
Banned
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 20
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by melting pot
You had stated in a previous post that to have a take home of less than $1000 would be pushing the povo line....so maybe the expression of poverty has changed its meaning to you 
...
...The second concept is simply based on what I consider to be enough for a minimum quality of life in terms of living needs, food, cars, entertainment, education etc for my family and me. That runs at about $1000 per week spending money, ie a NZD salary of about $75,000.
To feel comfortably off we'd need quite a bit more.
cheers - Quackers
Nov 30th 2005, 1:03 am
#47
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 91
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by auldduck
You are mixing up two different concepts. 1. genuine poverty. 2. poverty as perceived by myself.
The second concept is simply based on what I consider to be enough for a minimum quality of life in terms of living needs, food, cars, entertainment, education etc for my family and me. That runs at about $1000 per week spending money, ie a NZD salary of about $75,000.
To feel comfortably off we'd need quite a bit more.
cheers - Quackers
The second concept is simply based on what I consider to be enough for a minimum quality of life in terms of living needs, food, cars, entertainment, education etc for my family and me. That runs at about $1000 per week spending money, ie a NZD salary of about $75,000.
To feel comfortably off we'd need quite a bit more.
cheers - Quackers
There is also a difference between genuine poverty, as experienced in the third world, and poverty in the Western World. In rich countries, everyone has enough money to survive even if they have to live frugally. Of course, a lot of poverty in the rich countries is also arguably self-inflicted; that is to say, that a lot of people living in 'rough' and deprived areas are the cause of their own area's downfall. This is because such things can often be directly attributed to poor parental discipline, laziness (including the parents choosing to be unemployed) or the general lack of responsibility existing within the local community.
tottefan
Last edited by tottefan; Nov 30th 2005 at 1:06 am.
Nov 30th 2005, 1:36 am
#48
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Joined: Aug 2005
Location: I'm a Brit who's lived in Auckland for the last 2 years
Posts: 136
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by tottefan
There is also a difference between genuine poverty, as experienced in the third world, and poverty in the Western World.
In rich countries, everyone has enough money to survive even if they have to live frugally.
Yes, you're absolutely right, if you can literally just afford to feed yourself for most of the month, you're not in poverty, right? When we first got here, yes we lived in a relatively nice area and yes, i didn't have a job but our house leaked like a sieve and for the last week and a half in every month we ate what was left in the cupboards because we couldn't afford to do anything else. We had to sublet a room in our house because we actually couldn't afford the rent (despite having done the sums with the info we had at the time and thinking we could - the COL differences strike again...) but it was all we could find with the limited time we had to look for a place when we arrived. And were we in poverty? No, of course not, we could have chosen to take a shitty house somewhere skanky and have afforded to live a bit better. But, there are a shitload of people in every country in this world who are far far worse off than we were at that point and they do live in shitty state housing, they are bringing up a family of six kids and they do only have one sub-minimum-wage paycheck coming in every month. If you can tell me that that isn't a serious form of very real poverty, i'll eat my ****ing hat. For those people living in rural areas of NZ that are in that boat - they DON'T have mains sewerage, or water, or electricity in many cases and they DO live in tiny tin huts.
Of course, a lot of poverty in the rich countries is also arguably self-inflicted; that is to say, that a lot of people living in 'rough' and deprived areas are the cause of their own area's downfall. This is because such things can often be directly attributed to poor parental discipline, laziness (including the parents choosing to be unemployed) or the general lack of responsibility existing within the local community.
Now that's what I call out of sight, out of mind...
Nov 30th 2005, 2:38 am
#49
farmer nr Queenstown NZ
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: doing stuff, lots of stuff
Posts: 367
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
NZ climber, am i missing something or are you trying to make out your in poverty?(please bare with me as i am rather thick!)
Having spent time in India, and having travelled the length and width of NZ, South Auckland to the most rural of areas, i see nothing here that defines poverty in comparrison to what i saw as normal life in India.The scale is so far forward here and poor in India it makes this very conversation seem pompus.
I don't see many domestic cats on the gutter side dinning table anywhere in NZ.
Having spent time in India, and having travelled the length and width of NZ, South Auckland to the most rural of areas, i see nothing here that defines poverty in comparrison to what i saw as normal life in India.The scale is so far forward here and poor in India it makes this very conversation seem pompus.
I don't see many domestic cats on the gutter side dinning table anywhere in NZ.
Nov 30th 2005, 4:06 am
#50
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Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Back in NZ & loving it - living in Orewa
Posts: 1,183
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
I have to take issue with some of the signs of poverty used earlier in this thread. In sparsely populated areas it doesn't make sense to pipe mains water everywhere - nor to pipe waste water away. I spent my childhood in NZ in two different houses on the edge of a Canterbury town; in both cases we had a well, a pressurised storage tank, and an automatic electric pump. And I'd drink that water before the recycled, chlorinated crap you get in the UK any day. Did you know that Lndon water passes trhough the system three times between rain and sea - ie what you're drinking there has been drunk, pissed and cleaned up twice before it gets to you?
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
Nov 30th 2005, 4:18 am
#51
`
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 38,613
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
An interesting link
HERE
I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.
No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.
It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.
HERE
I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.
No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.
It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.
Last edited by BEVS; Nov 30th 2005 at 4:30 am. Reason: to add about water.
Nov 30th 2005, 4:40 am
#52
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 98
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by Apollo10
An interesting link
HERE
I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.
No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.
It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.
HERE
I have also been lucky enough to have travelled extensively.
No ' level ' of poverty is acceptable.
It is wise to treat rain water before you drink it these days.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/398666.stm
Nov 30th 2005, 4:50 am
#53
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 2,082
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by lapsed kiwi
I have to take issue with some of the signs of poverty used earlier in this thread. In sparsely populated areas it doesn't make sense to pipe mains water everywhere - nor to pipe waste water away. I spent my childhood in NZ in two different houses on the edge of a Canterbury town; in both cases we had a well, a pressurised storage tank, and an automatic electric pump. And I'd drink that water before the recycled, chlorinated crap you get in the UK any day. Did you know that Lndon water passes trhough the system three times between rain and sea - ie what you're drinking there has been drunk, pissed and cleaned up twice before it gets to you?
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
Similarly gravel roads - nothing wrong with them, and if the traffic density is low they're much more cost effective than tarseal. So please don't blindly apply western european, urban criteria where they aren't appropriate.
Uk has 'y' number of people to finance 'x' amount of roads
NZ has 'y/15' number of people to finance 'x times 1.5' number of roads.
You do the math.
Nov 30th 2005, 4:52 am
#54
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 81
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by ElizabethC
I love the UK...I love NZ ( The scenery bit )....but can say there are many things that are not right about either....can you ??
Nov 30th 2005, 5:13 am
#55
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 81
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by kelvynd
Exactly.
Uk has 'y' number of people to finance 'x' amount of roads
NZ has 'y/15' number of people to finance 'x times 1.5' number of roads.
You do the math.
Uk has 'y' number of people to finance 'x' amount of roads
NZ has 'y/15' number of people to finance 'x times 1.5' number of roads.
You do the math.
Nov 30th 2005, 6:48 am
#56
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 98
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by melting pot
I hear what you are saying...I dont think Tit for Tat is the approach to take....The Thread is about NZ...and yes you can say...but look at the UK...You will find many Brits that would be able to have a conversation with you and give you a list of things wrong with it longer than as a Kiwi you can.
I love the UK...I love NZ ( The scenery bit )....but can say there are many things that are not right about either....can you ??
I love the UK...I love NZ ( The scenery bit )....but can say there are many things that are not right about either....can you ??
Nov 30th 2005, 7:01 am
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by ElizabethC
Not knocking the UK - just pointing out child poverty is reported everywhere. And, I satrted to wonder, how valuable are statistics? If I was to measure a child in relation to poverty I'd probably ask is the child healthy, is he/she happy, disease/infection free, and do they have access to learning. It just got me thinking about poverty is all.
- healthy - asthma is a major issue in nz cities due to air pollution particularly in in auckland and chch. take a look at the freckled complexions of most locals to see the damage the sun does to skin from an early age.
- happy - thats a pretty individual thing and very hard to generalise about. i have seen the poverty in india and i can tell you the children in india have the biggest smiles i have ever seen so im not sure the two are mutually exclusive
- disease/infection - check the stats on meningitus b in NZ. Also compare the government preparedness for vaccinations against avian flu (if you believe the hype)/(when such as vaccine is feasible) with other developed nations. also take a look at the health service and the cost of healthcare. is it free at the point of delivery? check you local GP's policy on charging for child consultations (free by law but not enforced).
- access to learning - the quality of your education is linked directly to your wealth through the "zone" of your home. Extra curricular education is also linked to your wealth by virtue of the price of books.
Nov 30th 2005, 7:05 am
#58
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Planet Earth, for now.
Posts: 719
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
An old post about the poor in CHCH
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.
More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any money into setting up a new home with rental bonds and other expenses to escape domestic violence. Delta communities support trust manager Tony Mc Cahon says hikes in electricity and rents while benefits remain static had shrunk food budgets. Other expenditures can only come out of the very small food budgets that our struggling, disadvantaged families try to survive on, he said. It is not uncommon for a family of 6 to living weekly on food and clothing budget of only $60. This means that any unexpected bills causes a crisis. There is no extra money. Christmas could be a very traumatic experience for the 1800 families and individuals on the food bank database. It often rekindles unhappy childhood memories along with the lack of money to buy presents for children, and the fact that they cannot choose to take a holiday. Delta hope to distribute 70 food packs to disadvantaged families this Christmas, 20 more than before. Its quite heart breaking for us having to choose which family will receive one, we're still hoping funds will come in. As little as $35 buys a special Christmas food parcel ( at discounted prices). Donations can be dropped at 105 North Avon Road or sent to Delta, PO Box 26019. The trust has served the disadvantaged since 1995. The methodist mission could not be reached but it is under stood that only advocacy clients would receive Christmas supplies this year.
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.
More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any money into setting up a new home with rental bonds and other expenses to escape domestic violence. Delta communities support trust manager Tony Mc Cahon says hikes in electricity and rents while benefits remain static had shrunk food budgets. Other expenditures can only come out of the very small food budgets that our struggling, disadvantaged families try to survive on, he said. It is not uncommon for a family of 6 to living weekly on food and clothing budget of only $60. This means that any unexpected bills causes a crisis. There is no extra money. Christmas could be a very traumatic experience for the 1800 families and individuals on the food bank database. It often rekindles unhappy childhood memories along with the lack of money to buy presents for children, and the fact that they cannot choose to take a holiday. Delta hope to distribute 70 food packs to disadvantaged families this Christmas, 20 more than before. Its quite heart breaking for us having to choose which family will receive one, we're still hoping funds will come in. As little as $35 buys a special Christmas food parcel ( at discounted prices). Donations can be dropped at 105 North Avon Road or sent to Delta, PO Box 26019. The trust has served the disadvantaged since 1995. The methodist mission could not be reached but it is under stood that only advocacy clients would receive Christmas supplies this year.
Nov 30th 2005, 7:19 am
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
God I felt really awful reading that.
I'm going to hunt out the local collection agencies for food parcels in this area and see what we can contribute.
I'm going to hunt out the local collection agencies for food parcels in this area and see what we can contribute.
Nov 30th 2005, 7:32 am
#60
Nice Tats
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: PARADISE DARN SARRF
Posts: 819
Re: NZ - poverty myth.
Originally Posted by Lenmil
An old post about the poor in CHCH
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.
More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP.
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: The poor hungry mouths to feed in Christchurch.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from the Christchurch mail a local free paper, bloody hell.
More single men and African refugees are seeking Christchurch city mission emergency supplies, signaling a worrying new trend. Many terminally ill people crippled by the cost off medical treatment, house rentals and out of the roof electricity costs are also asking for food. The poor are just getting poorer said mission social services manager, Grey Crawford, who sees the bottom 5% of society who are the most economically oppressed. The people presenting are in more dire straits this year. we seem to be the last resort. Solo fathers were among the single men seeking support along with jobless African refugees and migrants, he said. Another support service says, it is not uncommon for a family of 6 to be living weekly on a food and clothing budget of only $60 . Benefits and lower incomes, left for dead by rapidly soaring living costs, are further pushing the needy into a financial and health miasma as more present with serious health issues. they can't heat homes, don't eat proper food and get sick. The health community card only goes so far, Crawford said . General expensive we take for granted, but people in reduced circumstances are finding it difficult to survive. A client receives no more than 2 food parcels every 6 months. But still 20 food packs go out every day of the year except December when 30 parcels a day are packed for the seriously marginalised. It has to be an essential food parcel, Crawford said. We are not just a stop gap. Assessor's and budget advisors ensure clients are receiving their correct Benefits, but, as other crisis agencies agree, it is difficult to budget or look ahead with zero to juggle with. The city mission has the only food bank to keep its doors open through Christmas and new year. The missions communities Christmas dinner is catering for over 700 this year and has 400 volunteers to serve the dinner. those who would other wise be alone, are escaping home violence, cash strapped or simply want to enjoy the festivities with the wider community will join the party. Crawford, former manager of the police victim support said the marketing hype that fantasises Christmas makes it devastating imprint in depression and at the extreme end, suicide. It can make people fell lonely and feel that there are the only ones who are not happy or enjoying parties. If they are not, it compounds misery and hardship which is further reinforced by the pressure of children wanting the kind of presents exaggerated by advertising. Meanwhile, city mission food stocks are the best for some time. Its just been crazy. We've been getting huge amounts from organisations or other donors, Crawford said. Other major food banks are poised for Christmas. The Salvation army hope centre has prepared 300 food hampers for its inner city clients, but its other city out lets will be giving a further 300 between them. Manager Karen Whittaker. said the food supplies and funds were slow coming in making it difficult to forward a plan. More low wage earners and people in temporary work were suffering. Last week, 4 woman who's relationships which had just ended, sought emergency Christmas supplies after putting any SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP.