New flag for the kiwis!
#17
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
In this case I think you'll find Wikipedia is your friend...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag
#19
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I agree with you can2nz and I'm the first to donate to my local RSA and have a lot of time for that generation.
But you'll find (and bellasmum post confirms my point) that this new generation of kiwis have a different attitude and so do not deserve to use our union jack (NOT union flag, tch)
But you'll find (and bellasmum post confirms my point) that this new generation of kiwis have a different attitude and so do not deserve to use our union jack (NOT union flag, tch)
It is called the Union Flag because it symbolises the administrative union of the countries of the United Kingdom. It is made up of the individual Flags of three of the Kingdom's countries all united under one Sovereign - the countries of 'England, of 'Scotland' and of 'Northern Ireland' (since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom). As Wales was not a Kingdom but a Principality it could not be included on the flag.
#20
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I thought I would add some more of my change to this great flag debate.
I find that in NZ there is this great push, in official circles, to identify something clearly unique or set of unique features and qualities which define NZ as a distinct society (to borrow from Quebec Nationalists) with an identity all its own.
I find that the exercise is useless and without much merit as "official circles" can only attempt to manage an identity but cannot create one - see the path of official bilingualism in Canada.
I agree that the NZ flag is a hold over from colonial days, however, it does not mean or indicate that NZ is a colony today. Instead it is part of the history and development of the country, it says where we came from.
The greatest legacy of the spread of the Union Flag is the spread of Westminster style democratic parliaments around the world and the spread of trade and integration of vast regions into the world economy, lifitng living standards, the rule of law and so many more things.
Arguing for a change of flag to reflect a more current reflection of current society argues for a change of flags and other symbols when it is felt necessary. To me this ignores history and the traditional identity of the country that is tied up in that. Despite the flag, NZ can continue to develop as a confident country making its way in the world and developing its human capital at home. This is where identity is forged, but we can never escape who we are or where we came from. We can pick our friends, but not our family as it were.
Arguments on the flag debate can be found in the 1960's as Canada abandoned the Red Ensign, a beautiful and symbolic flag. Today's Canadian flag is readily identifiable, but does not in its symbol represent the entire country. Believe it or not, maple trees are not found naturally coast to coast to coast in Canada. The flag design may have won out due to the greater populations in Eastern Canada where the maple trees are very prominant. Now that more people live out west, maybe Canada should rethink its Flag. Is this what NZ'ers who want a change are thinking? Make something more NZish? If so, when will it be updated?
A flag isn't like a company symbol like the shell Shel uses. That has changed lots of times, but is now so entrenched in its current form, one wonders if the brand managers would allow a change.
Long post did I set a record?
I find that in NZ there is this great push, in official circles, to identify something clearly unique or set of unique features and qualities which define NZ as a distinct society (to borrow from Quebec Nationalists) with an identity all its own.
I find that the exercise is useless and without much merit as "official circles" can only attempt to manage an identity but cannot create one - see the path of official bilingualism in Canada.
I agree that the NZ flag is a hold over from colonial days, however, it does not mean or indicate that NZ is a colony today. Instead it is part of the history and development of the country, it says where we came from.
The greatest legacy of the spread of the Union Flag is the spread of Westminster style democratic parliaments around the world and the spread of trade and integration of vast regions into the world economy, lifitng living standards, the rule of law and so many more things.
Arguing for a change of flag to reflect a more current reflection of current society argues for a change of flags and other symbols when it is felt necessary. To me this ignores history and the traditional identity of the country that is tied up in that. Despite the flag, NZ can continue to develop as a confident country making its way in the world and developing its human capital at home. This is where identity is forged, but we can never escape who we are or where we came from. We can pick our friends, but not our family as it were.
Arguments on the flag debate can be found in the 1960's as Canada abandoned the Red Ensign, a beautiful and symbolic flag. Today's Canadian flag is readily identifiable, but does not in its symbol represent the entire country. Believe it or not, maple trees are not found naturally coast to coast to coast in Canada. The flag design may have won out due to the greater populations in Eastern Canada where the maple trees are very prominant. Now that more people live out west, maybe Canada should rethink its Flag. Is this what NZ'ers who want a change are thinking? Make something more NZish? If so, when will it be updated?
A flag isn't like a company symbol like the shell Shel uses. That has changed lots of times, but is now so entrenched in its current form, one wonders if the brand managers would allow a change.
Long post did I set a record?
#21
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I'm on the west coast of Canada, and though we don't have sugar maples, we do have a variety of maple trees.
#22
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
How is your winter going out there? I ran into a Canadian couple here in Wellington a few weeks ago. I travel to welly regularly and they were happy to be here and travel around because as she said, it is white at home.
#23
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I live just past the Lower Mainland which means we are higher and drier. The lower Mainland usually gets more snow than we do and this year was no exception, we've had spring-like weather for 2-3 weeks already. For some reason, the island had worse than normal weather this year with Victoria reporting their sixth white Christmas in recorded weather history.
#24
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
The Returned Servicemen Association want to retain the NZ flag in its present form. This is the flag they fought under and the one which their friends died defending. The flag will not be changed until the last member of the RSA has passed away. Pascair because you find it offensive that the Union Jack is on the NZ flag - you should make a formal complaint in person , at your local RSA .
that's a great idea.
#25
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I thought I would add some more of my change to this great flag debate.
I find that in NZ there is this great push, in official circles, to identify something clearly unique or set of unique features and qualities which define NZ as a distinct society (to borrow from Quebec Nationalists) with an identity all its own.
I find that the exercise is useless and without much merit as "official circles" can only attempt to manage an identity but cannot create one - see the path of official bilingualism in Canada.
I agree that the NZ flag is a hold over from colonial days, however, it does not mean or indicate that NZ is a colony today. Instead it is part of the history and development of the country, it says where we came from.
The greatest legacy of the spread of the Union Flag is the spread of Westminster style democratic parliaments around the world and the spread of trade and integration of vast regions into the world economy, lifitng living standards, the rule of law and so many more things.
Arguing for a change of flag to reflect a more current reflection of current society argues for a change of flags and other symbols when it is felt necessary. To me this ignores history and the traditional identity of the country that is tied up in that. Despite the flag, NZ can continue to develop as a confident country making its way in the world and developing its human capital at home. This is where identity is forged, but we can never escape who we are or where we came from. We can pick our friends, but not our family as it were.
Arguments on the flag debate can be found in the 1960's as Canada abandoned the Red Ensign, a beautiful and symbolic flag. Today's Canadian flag is readily identifiable, but does not in its symbol represent the entire country. Believe it or not, maple trees are not found naturally coast to coast to coast in Canada. The flag design may have won out due to the greater populations in Eastern Canada where the maple trees are very prominant. Now that more people live out west, maybe Canada should rethink its Flag. Is this what NZ'ers who want a change are thinking? Make something more NZish? If so, when will it be updated?
A flag isn't like a company symbol like the shell Shel uses. That has changed lots of times, but is now so entrenched in its current form, one wonders if the brand managers would allow a change.
Long post did I set a record?
I find that in NZ there is this great push, in official circles, to identify something clearly unique or set of unique features and qualities which define NZ as a distinct society (to borrow from Quebec Nationalists) with an identity all its own.
I find that the exercise is useless and without much merit as "official circles" can only attempt to manage an identity but cannot create one - see the path of official bilingualism in Canada.
I agree that the NZ flag is a hold over from colonial days, however, it does not mean or indicate that NZ is a colony today. Instead it is part of the history and development of the country, it says where we came from.
The greatest legacy of the spread of the Union Flag is the spread of Westminster style democratic parliaments around the world and the spread of trade and integration of vast regions into the world economy, lifitng living standards, the rule of law and so many more things.
Arguing for a change of flag to reflect a more current reflection of current society argues for a change of flags and other symbols when it is felt necessary. To me this ignores history and the traditional identity of the country that is tied up in that. Despite the flag, NZ can continue to develop as a confident country making its way in the world and developing its human capital at home. This is where identity is forged, but we can never escape who we are or where we came from. We can pick our friends, but not our family as it were.
Arguments on the flag debate can be found in the 1960's as Canada abandoned the Red Ensign, a beautiful and symbolic flag. Today's Canadian flag is readily identifiable, but does not in its symbol represent the entire country. Believe it or not, maple trees are not found naturally coast to coast to coast in Canada. The flag design may have won out due to the greater populations in Eastern Canada where the maple trees are very prominant. Now that more people live out west, maybe Canada should rethink its Flag. Is this what NZ'ers who want a change are thinking? Make something more NZish? If so, when will it be updated?
A flag isn't like a company symbol like the shell Shel uses. That has changed lots of times, but is now so entrenched in its current form, one wonders if the brand managers would allow a change.
Long post did I set a record?
I felt compelled to answer when I got to Instead it is part of the history and development of the country, it says where we came from.
It only tells where some of us came from. In my case my foot, hand and some of my temperament.
#26
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I know we all can come from different places, but the flag is where we have come as a country, a greater whole, that new comers from anywhere "should" in some degree assimilate to, as it is where we have been as a country before our arrival that tells us who we are. That evolves of course, but those basic principles of freedom, rule of law, good government, those sorts of things, I think are well represented in the Union Flag. It is a great symbol.
#27
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
I know we all can come from different places, but the flag is where we have come as a country, a greater whole, that new comers from anywhere "should" in some degree assimilate to, as it is where we have been as a country before our arrival that tells us who we are. That evolves of course, but those basic principles of freedom, rule of law, good government, those sorts of things, I think are well represented in the Union Flag. It is a great symbol.
Fair enough, but a lot of so called pakeha have Maori heritage of varying degrees and we would like that acknowledge in our flag.
That would be a true reflection of who we are.
Immigrants to NZ have their homeland to belong to. But where do Maori and those of us with Maori whakapapa belong ?
I want a flag that reflects a true Kiwi heritage, not just some of it, as our current flag does.
#28
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Re: New flag for the kiwis!
And what about the Chinese, Korean, American, Indian, etc etc living in NZ - don't they get to have their symbol on the flag also? Why should the Maoris get special privileges? Because they saw it first?
I think the present flag is just fine. It symbolises NZ and has strong links to our history and culture, and the strongest aspect of our history is our colonial links to the UK, hence the Union Flag.
#29
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
Surely the southern cross symbol does exactly that?
And what about the Chinese, Korean, American, Indian, etc etc living in NZ - don't they get to have their symbol on the flag also? Why should the Maoris get special privileges? Because they saw it first?
I think the present flag is just fine. It symbolises NZ and has strong links to our history and culture, and the strongest aspect of our history is our colonial links to the UK, hence the Union Flag.
And what about the Chinese, Korean, American, Indian, etc etc living in NZ - don't they get to have their symbol on the flag also? Why should the Maoris get special privileges? Because they saw it first?
I think the present flag is just fine. It symbolises NZ and has strong links to our history and culture, and the strongest aspect of our history is our colonial links to the UK, hence the Union Flag.
Is your response based on ignorance or fear.
#30
Re: New flag for the kiwis!
Why don't we just fly the Australian flag and ease ourselves of the burden of government? The two countries in many regards are very similar anyway .
Edit to add: And if we do change the flag in some stunningly pointless move why not pick something no one is partial to, so we can avoid future disputes, and hence truely represents modern multiculturalism here. Perhaps a big rectangle all one shade of orange or similar?
Edit to add: And if we do change the flag in some stunningly pointless move why not pick something no one is partial to, so we can avoid future disputes, and hence truely represents modern multiculturalism here. Perhaps a big rectangle all one shade of orange or similar?
Last edited by Charismatic; Feb 17th 2009 at 12:07 pm.