Am Loolah

Try PM'ing Wiz & Ton, he is a recruitment consultant in ChCh.

We were pretty well off when we lived in London, once we had kids we holidayed abroad in Europe twice in 5 years ... It's not realistic to assume you'll miss the proximity of those foreign hols on your doorstep unless you've always don it ... We don't miss it, coz we never did it!

dannigirl

Here to stay - very true about the similarities between Wales and NZ in terms of landscape. I love Wales, it is a beautiful country, haven't seen all of it...it is a bit like NZ in that you can't eat the scenery. Culturally I think Wales and NZ are closer that England and NZ, rugby, racing and beer!! ha ha. I think hubby will fit right in.

Loolah - you are so right about travelling, children are too bloody expensive. No overseas holiday for us this year

Payens

Hi Dannigirl,

I moved from London to Wellington about five weeks ago and many of the observations (both negative and positive) are true.

Bumping into people you know is a positive I think? This is oddly a London thing and certainly where I grew up in the UK (St.Helens) and then at Uni (Durham), I'd meet people all the time and have a good natter. Isn't that a good thing maybe just for me

On the lifestyle front, the biggest difference has been the day to day living from the job to your spare time. As you point out, in the UK I used to wait for each holiday to escape the daily grind of working in London. In Wellington, I'm finding the office environment far more laid back and less stressful, which means I'm not even thinking about holidays anymore, just enjoying living! (although I do have a ski trip pencilled in sometime in the NZ winter, but I'm not counting down the days like I would in the UK).

As a comparison to Cardiff, which I've visited but not lived, I would still prefer Wellington. It's far more cosmopolitan and vibrant and a much prettier city. Also, job wise there are better opportunities in my line of work (I was worked in the City) in Wellington than there are in Cardiff - though clearly Auckland is the biggest market.

I think shopping is definitely not comparable to London (and probably not Cardiff either?), it's not even in the same universe for clothes shopping, but personally I don't think it's half as bad as many posts make out. Mind you, I'm a guy so maybe I'm less fussy.

These are all purely subjective observations and you and your OH might have different aspirations for life than myself, but thought I'd share my thoughts in case they were of any help

dannigirl

Thanks Payens.

Glad you seem to be enjoying Wellington esp since you have just moved from London 5 weeks ago. Good to know a recent experience. What made you move to NZ??
I think I am slowly moving over to the NZ camp, just too many great things that far outweigh the negative. Our next plan of action will be to visit and really check Wellington out. Can you believe I used to live in Dunedin (so close to Queenstown) and have NEVER skied! One thing I will change is that I will do more trips around NZ when I get home. It is only since coming to the UK that I appreciate the easy access to great places within NZ.

I do like seeing people, don't think I am some kind of weirdo...I think it is really a kiwi thing. Can't explain, but sometimes you want to do some shopping or go out and not see someone you know i.e be uninterupted and anonymous, be one in a large crowd. You hardly ever get that in NZ, you always know someone! Ironically now what drives me mad here are the crowds of people EVERYWHERE. Even if you go and sit on a common there could be a hundred people there (thousands on a nice day as you will know).

Shopping, well I survived 26 years in NZ with the shopping (I never thought it was dire). There is lots of choice here and I quite like fashion but I don't really wear designer clothes or anthing, just happy to follow the fashion really. If we move to Cardiff I will have to get used to lashings of fake tan!! ha ha lol.

Well, it is a beautiful day here in London. I can hear someone mowing their lawns. London is great on a nice day....I love it at the moment as I have the luxury of being on maternity leave...not so great being stuck on a stinking hot bus or the tube in hot, hot weather.

Keep us updated, would be interesting to hear if you continue to enjoy everything NZ has to offer.

Payens

Glad you found some of it useful

Many of the reasons you've already given; tired of the crowds; standard of living; lack of space; general (justified) pessimism in the UK and many other things (hoodies, chavs, celebrity culture, weather and a veritable collection of other things).

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by Welly. I hadn't even visited before I emigrated here, but the risk paid off and I've really landed on my feet. Everything seems cleaner, less crowded and far more tranquil. People are generally happy to be living here and with the global recession hitting hard outside NZ - kiwis and ex-pats are really appreciating what they have I think. Oh and have I mentioned the coffee it's amazing!

One word of warning, wages are definitely lower relatively speaking. I've been quite fortunate that I've landed in a job which pays a half decent wage (>$100k) and I have no dependents. But I get the impression I've been quite lucky. A friend of mine emigrated recently also (he's an accountant of some sort) and he took a massive pay cut, seems accountants in the UK are paid a lot! So although I have no problems with money, it is a major consideration for many people here.

Back to the good stuff. I think a massive consideration is bringing up children (though not for me just yet!). But I can imagine it would be pretty wonderful bringing them up here - others could definitely elaborate much better than I can . Kid's are also generally respectful here and there doesn't seem to be any of the antisocial issues with kids/young adults that occur in London. (although I must admit i haven't ventured into some of the wider 'burbs).

Yeah, the crowd thing didn't really annoy me as such, but given a prference it would be to have some space every now and again! (by the way, I was in Balham, so I know about crowds on the common ) - on the other hand, I agree it's not all bad and a nice sunny day in London is nice. However, as you point out, getting to work is horrific and it isn't so nice when you're working long hours in a stressful job... looking out at the nice day!

No probs with getting a tan here - no ozone layer

Enjoy the sun in London, temperatures are falling as we head into winter

No doubt I'll update when I've been here a bit longer!

luvwelly

Same here, came here on a posting never having been before. It is a lovely city..your initial impressions are essentially spot on i.m.v. (re salary levels too) my kids love it here AND the coffee ( over most of NZ - I have travelled a lot) is to die for (even Crap coffee seems to have found some she likes now - can't imagine why it took her so long in Welly the only bad ones are Gloria Jeans, New World Obsession and McDonalds really..even I can tolerate the occasional Starbucks but it is milder than the rest).
The Welly downsides are lack of ozone layer (all NZ) and the earthquake faultline which goes through the centre of the CBD...felt my first earthquake rumble yesterday after almost 2 years..I thought it was just a gust of wind hitting the window but my OH phoned me up and asked if I noticed it? Enjoy.

dannigirl

Stop it, I want a flat white now! I always have to have a double shot cappucino in Startbucks etc. Why don't they have any such thing as a flat white here?

dannigirl

Although probably not as much as all of you lot are missing your (insert applicable) pork pies, real ale, bitter, crisps, guiness sausages etc etc

luvwelly

I always stick with a trim latte t.b.h...never tried a flat white..not even slightly curious..why wouldn't you want that lovely foam?
Has anyone else noticed no matter where you go, the coffee cups are always brown?

Kiwi-Irish

Oh. My. God.

I'm in the same boat - "we're" in the same boat. Here's our story, hope you don't mind me starting it off similar to yours - I like your style

Background info: I am a 37 year old kiwi living in London. Came here in 1996 as I was having a rough time in Christchurch at the time ... needed a change of scenery. Never planned to stay 13 years, but you know the drill, you meet a guy from here and you end up staying. We're not married with children but are planning that in the future. We live in Barking (not a bad area, but not great either, a bit deprived). I have a job in the city that pays fairly well and my other half has his own drainage business. He too is finding his business tough going because of the downturn - but we realize its the same the world over at the moment.

We'd like a better quality of life also, and have done, well "are" doing, a lot of research at the moment. I'm originally from Christchurch and my family are still there. Going back to Christchurch is not really an option for us, its small, quiet, cold in the winter, and I just know in my heart I'd not be happy there, so feel the best option for us is Auckland. We know people there, the climate is better, its a bigger city feel etc. We agree with you with your sentiments on going back to New Zealand without at least £100k. Its much more expensive to live in New Zealand than people realise and we need to be prepared. We also realise that in order to have a good standard of living that compares or preferably is better there, we have to run our own business, as the salaries in New Zealand are by-and-large quite poor.

We too don't plan on staying in London for the long term, but if we want to go to New Zealand we, like yourselves will have to stay for at least another two years to save more in order to set ourselves up

I am fairly settled here, and its great to have my otherhalf's family here and his friends as well as mine. Its just hard, as I never really saw myself living here forever - it seems quite depressing in a sense. I would love to go to Australia actually (because the cost of living I perceive to be a bit better and much better weather) but my otherhalf doesn't fit the criteria, therefore we would have to go to NZ initially and then springboard into Australia after a few years if we still wanted to.

Re NZ, I have to be realistic, and realise that New Zealand isn't the land of milk and honey its sometimes made out to be. It has 'real' problems. As awful as it sounds, my negatives outweigh the positives I think. Eeek

The negatives (and these could just be things I've found) ...

1. Cost of Living. A very high cost of living (when you're living it, there, earning the NZ dollar), your money just doesn't go as far. The houses are poorly made in NZ, the old houses, weatherboard style often have no pink bats and are hard to maintain, and even the new ones have paper-like walls, no central heating, and can be damp. The houses that have underfloor heating cost too much to run - as electricity is extortionate.

2. Shopping. I know this probably sounds shallow but the shopping is limited. The clothes are, and this is probably a huge over-generalisation - but what I feel, made out of nasty fabrics and they tend to fall apart. There is also limited choice - either super cheap or just ridiculously expensive. Its not unusual to spend serious cash on a nylon top.

3. Holidays. We do like our holidays and that would be an issue in NZ, as you are limited to Asia and Australia (although theyr'e great don't get me wrong - but it might get a bit samey after a while).

4. Travelling back to the UK expenses. May be hard to afford, especially once kids are in the mix

The positives

1. The laid-back lifestyle, not in the workplace necessarily, but in the culture of the people

2. Family are there

3. Better weather in the North of the Island

4. Outdoorsiness

I do feel a bit like yourself Danni, as in the fact that you aren't sure if you'll ever really fit in. I'll probably forever get asked "how come you left NZ?" or "how come you're here when NZ's so nice?" - its quite tiring.

I'd be interested to hear your views on the pitfalls and downsides. I worry as well that I'll take my otherhalf there and after the initial change of scenery, that he'll be bored rigid there and miss HIS friends and family

I dont' know what the hell you do when you are torn between places. I also wouldn't want to think of any kids of ours leaving us in NZ either, when they do their OE on their Irish passport and don't come back.

We have looked into house prices, car prices etc and things seem to priced a bit on the high side, both in NZ and Oz ... in fact parts of Australia are more expensive than NZ. We saw some houses in Brisbane and they were a hell of a price.

My other half knows of quite a few people who have set off to live a life down under and returned in no time at all. I may find it hard to re-adjust to the Kiwi lifestyle myself.

Do you intend to leave the door open to return if things don't work out?
I didnt' mean any of this to sound negative, but I feel myself, that I have to think of all possibilities

PM us if you want to chat in more detail.....

dannigirl

Have sent you a PM Kiwi-Irish

Jay-Producer

Since some you ladies have shopping fever on your minds. Cardiff is in the middle of building one of the biggest shopping centres in the UK. I'm sure that's good enough for any female. The clothing in NZ is awful - it falls apart. All my clothes bought in NZ have fallen apart, both designer and normal high street brands. Awful quality. My clothes from the UK are still going strong.

hokeypokey

Ooh this is weird.... have been reading posts on this site for a few months and just plucked up courage to register. I am a total techno - phobe so hopefully this will work. Here goes..

I was interested to know when reading your post why you wouldnt work as a social worker back in NZ but are happy in this job in the UK? I am social worker here in UK (6 years children & families experience) and I have been offered a care & protection post with CYF in Rotorua. Due to start in August 09. I would be very interested to hear from you Dannigirl as to what I might be letting myself in for?!?! Any advice / info would be appreciated.

dannigirl

Hi Hokeypokey....love your name by the way (oooohhh I really miss hokey pokey icecream)

I will try and explain as best as I cain why I probably wouldn't work as a sw in NZ. I want to say straight off that it mostly comes down to my personal choice.

The main reason I left NZ was to gain more experience as a social worker. I had the choice of leaving Dunedin (where I grew up and trained) to go work in the North Island or go overseas, I chose overseas! Part of growing up in NZ, it is inevitable at some time I guess that you venture overseas for your big OE.

What is difficult in NZ social work is the very different system - some of which I appreciate, some I don't (I will elaborate further on).

Having now worked in London for the past 7 years I can now say that I would have difficulty living in close proximity to service users. It is fairly difficult removing children from a situation of abuse, what can make it worse is then bumping into family members at the supermarket/park/school. I have had this situation in London but it is a bit easier to avoid especially if you work and live in different boroughs as I do now.

What frustrates me a lot in London is the lack of family/community support. We remove children, place them in foster care, no family visit/family don't/can't change, child gets adopted, no one from family ever see said child again
In NZ the family are much more involved when a child is "removed" in that wider family will usually step in. Yes, children still go into foster care but often children remain living in the wider family....a good thing as long as the issues/problems of abuse are being addressed....not so in all cases. In the North Island you experience whanau/family placements much more often due to the higher population of Maori. Working in Rotorua you will work closely with local marae and the Maori elders/whanau in working with the community.

It can be a difficult system in NZ to work in. There are real issues in terms with Maori in relation to poverty/alcoholism/drug misuse/child abuse stats etc. (Take a look at some of the stats they are SHOCKING) There can be extreme polarised views in NZ about The Treaty of Waitangi, one extreme is that Maori should get on with things, stop living in the past. The other is that Maori will forever be damaged and things will not change until sovereignty/independence is returned to the Maori. Part of training as a social worker in NZ is completing quite a lot of study on The Treaty of Waitangi to and I can faithfully say that whilst we may not experience true "multiculturalism" in NZ this training has definitely helped me in my work over here just on a basic level of understanding and respecting another culture/s from your own. You will definitely not "get" social work in NZ until you have a good understanding of The Treaty of Waitangi and then only experience will give your further working knowledge of how it all works in practice. It can difficult working in a country with an indigenous population. It can all get a bit maori vs non-maori when the real issue is child abuse. But what comes first the chicken or the egg. Poverty, child abuse, domestic violence within the Maori population can be attributed (in my view) to the past but it does not excuse it....so then how do you work with that..can be really difficult and is a real can cause of debate in NZ. That is not to say you won't work with white families, you will!

In the UK (did I read on your post that you are in Scotland?? your system is different to England and Wales isn't it) it is a lot more punitive towards families, simply because there is a huge problem here (as you will know) with the underclass (or chavs/neds as they are better known). Resources are so tight there is no room for collaborative working, working alongside or with families, if social workers do work alongside families it just really means they aren't actually monitoring or working with the family and children end up being hurt or killed a la Baby P. Work is very extreme here I find, no family support anymore, well at least not in London. Real shame. The main difference is that in the UK the point of social work is to remove children from families and have them adopted. In NZ the main emphasis is on keeping children within families - sometimes to the cost of the children who continue to be abused within the family. Read what you want into either system, they both have faults!!!

I think you will find it hard coming from a UK system where you have a lot of power and authority, but the public perception of social workers is crap. In NZ you will not feel the same power and authority (pretty close but not quite) but, I feel social workers are more well regarded as professionals (however this may have changed!) in NZ.

My issues with NZ and social work are:
- Gangs, big problem in NZ. Most people don't have any day to day interaction with them. In Rotorua I expect you would have some interaction on some level. It is hard to explain without generalising too much. That is not to say all gang members are criminals or bad people, but some gangs are notorious and love their notoriety. Most kiwis know where gangs live and just stay out of their path. For example everyone knows where the Mongrel Mob live in Dunedin, you just stay well away. Sometimes it is not so easy, Black Power took over a house in a place called Ravensbourne on the road down to Port Chalmers (in Dunedin.) It was the main route and the gang members took it on themselves to stop cars (by standing in the middle of the road) for no particular reason and were just generally intimidating to have around. They didn't last long and moved soon enough (can't sell drugs when your gang pad is always being raided, they move to a lesser populated area or stop intimidating locals = police stop raiding them). I have no experience of working with gang members and all I can say is that I wouldn't want to either. Maybe it is something to do with me, and if you are from a different country you may be more detached as I am here. Here I have had no problems with old school East End gang members (one who was a convicted murderer) and within families where children have previously died (not I may point out when I was working with them!!). At home it is all a little too close to home for me!


-sometimes you can feel like you are going around in crcles in NZ when trying to work with families. Child remains in family, no positive change made, child still being abused. Family Group Conferences were pioneered in NZ mainly due to how we work "with" families. I don't know the latest research or evidence but I think it used to be that they were limited in their effectiveness. There is no such thing really as adoption in NZ, this means that children often stay within families or in permanent foster care. This is good in that they can grow up in a safe environment and still maintain links with their family and cultural identity (whichever that is pakeha, pacific island, asian, chinese or maori etc etc). Adoption can be positive for many children (as long as the child is aware of their past) in the UK, not sure it would work in NZ.

-It can be difficult as a white worker to work in a largely Maori community. Sometimes you will not be "let in" to support and work with a family simply because you are Pakeha and in some cases it will be worse for you being from the UK given the history. This may be blatant, maybe not, but you will experience "reverse racism". Sometimes this will be addressed, other times not. You may have a different perspective that people appreciate, or you may not, don't worry people will let you know.

-NZ is a small place, Rotorua is a small place within a small country. It can be isolating and suffocating all at same time. Small town mentality, parochial is a common description of NZ people!! On the other hand it can be quite handy knowing everyone's business...can make your job a bit easier!! ha ha.

-If you hate the job there is little choice elsewhere. As like most countries the most awful jobs are the ones that are always vacant. Child protection jobs in South Auckland etc. Child Protection Residential homes are notorious places to work, however a lot of that is in the mindset. If you go in with a positive attitude you might be okay.

-If you get a bad boss it can be a bit of a nightmare.

- Pay is sh*te, might progress quickly - not sure??

On the positive side.
-From what I remember the systems are far better from computer systems to procedures are all very well set out esp if you work for CYF.

-There are lots of brilliant, inspirational social workers in NZ. It is also a sight to behold when it all does work and a child can remain with their family. Family values and community still play a big part in NZ which is wonderful.

NZ pioneers a lot of social development/research - it is something to do with the population (and unfortunately our social problems) - many programmes are "tested" and then rolled out around the world. Family Group Conferences, Strengthening Families to name two.

-Not totally related to social work but can the lifestyle helps you wind down in NZ. It can be hard to escape the stress in London I find, other parts of UK not so bad I imagine.

Sorry if this is a really long post (quite cathartic) but it really is my own personal choice about working in NZ. I love the values of NZ social work and the system there, but it is all just on such a small scale and I think that is a big part of it for me. I would work for say a charity or similar, just not sure I would do CYF work, but you are more than likely to be completely different to me. Lots of British social workers go out and work there and enjoy it (or seem to).

I think as long as you.....learn about the system, don't pretend you know everything about The Treaty of Waitangi/Maori culture/NZ culture because you read it in a book!!, have a good sense of humour and be prepared to not get things at first, and you can stand up for yourself you will be fine.

I would have PM'd you but not sure if I could because you don't have many posts but feel freel to message me if you have any questions in particular and I will be more than happy to answer them.

Hope this helps, sorry for the ramble.

Dannigirl

dannigirl

Not sure if I should admit this but I still have tee shirts from NZ (from 7 years ago - don't worry I don't wear out in public) and they are still going strong!!

Yes, Cardiff may be building one of the biggest shopping Centres in the UK but not sure it is going to necessarily add to Cardiff....the only shop that I can think of that is missing in Cardiff is John Lewis. This will be in the new mall. What is confusing most locals is what will happen to all the stores that are there now. If they all move to the new mall what happens?..new apartments?....there are already lots of new apartment blocks that have literally been stopped half way through because of the credit crunch.