ned

Just a thought like, but how many GOOD friends did you make in your last five years in the UK?
The good friends I have in the UK I made a long time ago. Sure I have work mates and acquaintances that I would call friends but they're not exactly my best mates.
Now when I finally arrive in New Zealand I will have left all my mates behind (there is one lad who I was pals with until he emigrated 25 years ago, but he is a jaffa so he doesn't count) and perhaps I may feel a little desperate to replace what I have lost. And where am I likely to find other like minded and perhaps DESPERATE people? why in the expat community of course!
So perhaps it is not that heard to making Kiwi mates, just mates, especially amongst people who have a full compliment already

Like I said just a thought

ned

petful

"The Brits are way more courteous than Kiwis when it comes to road manners."

But you never generalise, do you Campbells?

"Wow, you score 100 point for assuming. Instead of the possibility that Kiwi waiters /esses could do with a shot of personality and enthusiasm in that department you quickly assume it is my tone, body language etc and general behaviour."

Campbells, if you live in Auckland, there's NO WAY the wait staff could ALL be Kiwi.....
I was trying to recommend some good restaurants and cafes to you, where I've found food, coffee, prices and staff really good. I was trying to be helpful, but you didn't notice, you were too busy looking for an excuse to get rarked up at me, the Kiwi, becasue you've already made your mind up about the backwardness, rudeness and excessive patriotism of Kiwis.

Even if I were to invite you to my house for a barbie and a few drinks you'd probably ask me what the catch was (re one of your earlier posts).

And, yep, I am making an assumption, 'cos it's pretty obvious from your whole vibe on this forum that you're the kind of person who is likely nasty to waitresses (who get $9 after tax an hour and are just trying to get through the shift. You ever been a waiter?) But of course, people who are nasty to waitresses would NEVER admit they're those kind of people, would they?

"BTW, is the Sitar 100% New Zealand owned ?"

Again, it's in Auckland, it's an Indian restaurant - probably not! Who cares? I go there for the food. But it seems like you're saying: 'if the staff there are good, it's because they're not Kiwi'. Sheesh, and you wonder why you don't have Kiwi friends?!

Stop and think for a moment - re your earlier posts - if we're all so backward with irritating mentalities and you don't like the way we talk and can't stand our culture (Yes, this is NZ, so we 'do things the NZ way'. Hmm, funny that!), why are you on a forum whinging (yes) that it's hard to make friends with us? You make no sense!

"I was actually trying to point out that Kiwi managers do in many cases lack the skills of their overseas counterparts. Perhaps this is also a case of we are happy in a 20 year lag and why should we have to change that?"

I know quite a few Kiwis you would thoroughly agree with you on that point, and I have seen several feature articles written on the topic. I think you are the one with the entrenched ideas here.

"I don’t understand your distaste towards the OE thing. So just as a matter of interest, what countries have you lived and worked in outside New Zealand.?"

You don't have to understand it, it's just my personal preference. Having your key (and I say 'key', 'cos for many Kiwis who do the London thing, they come back home after the work visa expires and hang up their backpack for good) travel experience in a country where the langauage is the same and the food, culture etc are somewhat similar just doesn't really float my boat.

Why do you want to know where I've lived abroad? Aren't we talking about NZ here? Oh, but of the three countries abroad I have lived and worked in, I did live in your country for a while, and you'll note (actually, you probably won't) that I haven't once put it down.
(And before you go off...yes, I did make some statements about the UK and the opinions of my Brit expat friends that are ALL factual/from the mouths of Brit expats I am close to).

And just because I haven't moved elsewhere in the world permanently, does that mean I shouldn't offer my local's perspective to expats on a forum where the topic is 'What's the secret to making local friends?'. Again, you make no sense.

"Not so sure about that. The stats for Kiwis leaving NZ are pretty up there and with Oz recently offering further tax cuts for the higher earners they expect to attract more Kiwis and they are obviously targeting the skilled workers as that is what the country ( Oz ) needs. Or, do you mean that Kiwis never go to another country to settle and take on the host nation’s ways, it is more a short-term trip to make some good salaries and come back to New Zealand where it’s all sweet as."

I just know that I don't meet huge numbers of Kiwis saying they don't wanna be in their home land, but I meet and have met many, many Brits expressing this sentiment (here, in the UK, and elsewhere in the world). This is my experience. Nothing you can say will change that.

"When I left Scotland I didn’t “run away”, I left seeing it as an opportunity for advancement, to broaden my horizons and outlook."

Hmm, yep, your outlook certainly seems to be broad: 'Kiwis only want to do things the Kiwi way! They're too patriotic and they're all rude!' (stamps foot)

"I am very confident that the areas that you see as me being negative about New Zealand I have heard from many other sources and are not just my opinion. The first step towards change is recognising the need for such."

And I am confident I have far more knowledge of NZ values and mindsets than you do, and that I regularly mix with both Brits and Kiwis far more than you do. The whole reason I came on this forum was because I found it interesting and I thought people looking at this thread would be keen to have a Kiwi point of view added to the mix.

Especially when THIS Kiwi has shot down your theory that we think we're an ideal nation and can't take any criticism - look at what I've said in my posts about our rising crime, racism, child abuse, rampant alcoholism, weak economy, my own observations on uptightness toward people getting passionate, agreed with you on the rep for bad management etc. etc.

You seem to be venting a lot of spleen based on a few bad encounters you've had with a few Kiwis and basing your opinion on everything Kiwi on some pretty huge, unfair, negative generalisations. It seems a couple of Kiwis on this forum have tried to be friendly to you, but as I said, you've already made up your mind. You don't love a debate, you just like having a spew and having the last word.

"I am certainly not dwelling on everything I don’t like about New Zealand"

The only proof I've seen of this on THIS thread is where you said it's good for your son out here. I'm glad your boy is happy and that you see the value here for him. But you still haven't said why you chose to move here or what you DO like about NZ? Does it pain you that much to admit there could be some good stuff here?

"but this unrealistic view that most Kiwis try to put over of this country if far from my experience. I think it adds to the reality of it all that someone has got the balls to say that NZ is not this travel brochure country."

How do you know what Kiwis are thinking and saying when you admit you don't have Kiwi buddies? Are you basing all your NZ theory on brief encounters with ning nongs? Or on brief encounters where you got on your imperial throne with people you barely knew (and hence shoulda known better), yet when the Kiwi defends thier homeland to the ranting foreigner, they're being 'overly patriotic'? Hmmm? If situation were reversed, how would the proud Scot respond?

"The sad thing is that, it is not just me with the these thoughts. So your attitude of why don’t you just piss off, is I am sure your attitude to your fellow Kiwi’s that have their reasons for having left NZ ( in their droves)."

I never told you to, or suggested you ought to piss off. I'm moving back to Auckland soon because I love the melting pot. I work from home, so it's 100% my choice to go back there. My 'attitude', as you say, is your own sad, negative interpretation.

"Is it possible that some of the same resistance to change is why most of the Kiwi’s with skills move to Australia and the ones that stay mostly work for Australian owned companies."

Again, such a huge generalisation. As someone who has moved their life around the world a couple of times, as you are so keen to stress, you of all people should understand there are many kinds of ties that bind and many reasons for going elsewhere to live and work.

I've been stoked and surprised by the 90% positive comments I've received on here. And as another (I believe) Kiwi poster said, if I can come on here and help one person out, then it's good.

I don't think it would matter what any Kiwi said to or did for you or offered you. I'm not interested in continuing a forum 'debate' with you, you can say whatever you will about me, about NZ, about NZ people. And oh yes, you will. But it will largely be generalisations and the defensive, must-have-the-last word rantings of a very negative person.

I don't think you'd make friends with the locals anywhere you went. Your whole vibe of 'I chose to come to NZ, then compiled a list of everything I don't like about the place and the people, but the locals don't wish for me to read this list to them, and this therefore makes them backwards with an overly patriotic mentality' is just so patronising and whiney.

It takes two people to make friends.

petful

Yep, very good point there too, Ned.

whitesand

I love this thread - it's terrific, much better than all that mealy-mouthed 'everything is wonderful, fantastic - simply great over here' that seems to fill may other threads.

Instead, this thread has meat on it!

Well, I'll add my bit. If, as one of the posters stated the only way to succeed here is running your own business (which is probably correct) why the hell don't the immigration people make this clear to all those immigrants who come here hoping for the best and seeing their hopes have been misplaced. There is far too much hype attached to the immigration progress and getting people to come over, that it is inevitable that many will be disappointed.

All very well to say Brits complain, but that is justified when you see just what is promised and what is delivered. Basically, the wages and the cost of living are now so far apart that many are finding it difficult to make ends meet. And, without money nothing is good fun. Anyone who replies that they didn't come here for the money will make me sceam! Noone comes here for the money! What we are talking about is having enough money for the bills. And, that is getting more and more difficult for many. If the rents weren't so high and the cost of most things so dear then folks would put up with a lot. However, the crap salaries do not justify the heavy cost of living here.

Which brings me to another problem. The freezing houses! If landlords are charging around $350 a week for a flat, then they need to make sure that the flat is worth that, with proper heating, modern bathrooms and kitchens. Most are below the standards that those on benefits in the UK would except!
And, central heating and doulbe glazing is not a luxury - it should be essential in the climate like NZ's.

Also, it's not the only place in the world with good scenery and fresh air - believe me! People do go on so much about this.

Finally, what's wrong with complaining and moaning. It's in the British culture and that's how things get changed. I don't think we need to apologise for that. Also, we're used to folks moaning to us - we don't take it personally. We can deal with it.

Avid

Well, that leads to a debate about the nature of immigration and, more specifically, why New Zealand is so keen to attract immigrants.

The standard view is that New Zealand is a large country with a small population and is in desperate need of skilled migrants to make up the shortfall.

The more cynical (and probably more correct) view is that the government has looked at the population growth figures for the next 50 years and realised that the 'non-whites' will easily outnumber the 'whites' unless something is down pretty quickly. This leads to, if we are being honest, an immigration 'points system' that's almost impossible to fail if you are British.

There is a new 'Active Investor' visa starting next month which will allows people with $2.5 million to burn a chance to live in New Zealand, skills or no skills (!) and it is possible to enter New Zealand on a 3-year 'Business Investor' visa if you can prove that you have the money and ideas to start a business here.

So I'd say, overall, that immigration have bent over backwards to be nice to us.

Batty

There are an awful lot of immigrants in this country who don't come from the UK and didn't come to New Zealand expecting to find it here either. I've lived in London with all its attendant 'conveniences' and I'd never, ever want to do it again. I spent most of my time in a state of rage at the sheer incompetence of most services I had to come in contact with. And as for rudeness! The British may think they're polite but they pale in comparison to the Irish. I spent 5 years there in total - the first time was 3 years and was great but I was quite young then. The second time was a different ball game entirely. It's harder to make friends when you're older and don't have children to break the ice.

On the subject of rudeness in restaurants here, I'm not saying there are no rude waiters/waitresses in Auckland - just I've never met them - where are they so we can compare notes? Surely if they're that bad it would be a service to other members to steer them clear?

New Zealand is as much MY country now as it is my Kiwi husband's and I love it, warts and all. And of course there are warts - but in my experience you only let these nitty gritty things get to you when you're dissatisfied with other aspects of your life. I don't want anybody changing things here just so they're the same as another country that I don't live in, and more acceptable to foreigners - it's because other countries have done that, that you'll hear people saying they want to emigrate. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

luvwelly

Very interesting discussion but just to come back on the waiters/waitresses thing....here in Wellington, I have had nothing but good efficient friendly service time after time, so I really don't share Campbells experience here. I still come away from such encounters wondering how on earth they managed to wheedle so much personal info out of me....much less likely to happen in the UK although I did used to find service there (except London) better than in the last EU country I arrived from.

Most people I have dealt with so far here from car salesmen, waiters/waitresses, headteachers to doctors have been friendly and helpful....whether this ever translates into friendships is another matter but it is good customer service and makes the quality of your day so much better.

I agree with Ned that the UK is not necessarily that friendly a place either...I do think though as a more transient community in the UK (people often relocate away from immediate family for employment) people are maybe more up for changing, widening their circle of friends perhaps more readily and more often than in somewhere like say France where the community is more settled.

I also have found the driving more courteous here than in the last EU country as at least when I indicate here, they let me in if they possibly can!

Campbells

I guess the easiest method to discredit what I say is to try to discredit me instead of discussing the actual point I am making.

Since you have gone through my previous posts to gather some info you will see that this is also typical, so whilst I do not intend to change the focus of the topic/s, you prefer to attempt to make me look stupid. As they say “dude”, got the fridge magnet. Well maybe Marlborough country is just so different to Jaffa land after all.

My point is: The waiters could be friendlier, nothing to do with prices or good food.

Being a Kiwi you are probably the HR manager too, right !


The local psychologist.

Just because it doesn’t make sense to you ( and probably others too).

Don’t you think if that were the case I would fit right in ?

Well, I have one of those too. I don’t understand you & you don’t understand me. That’s it.

I thought so !

Obviously, as this will just make whatever I say that may be anti NZ just go away.

Yes, and I can understand why don’t talk out

Once again I am the only person with any negative outlook so you try to paint the picture that I am this bitter & twisted person.




Same old ! This is obviously just “my theory”. BTW is there somewhere you can get score feedback from your posts ? Whether or not you like it there has been a few responses to this thread commenting that it actually has some meat in it.

No

Well mate, if you have read 1100 odd of my posts, good on ya !

You got me. I am not sure how a Scot would respond, been out of Scotland too long to answer that. Next time I see a pipe-band marching down the street I’ll ask them, (a) if they are Kiwi’s (b) how a Scot would respond (c) why are they dressed up in tartan and not grass skirts.

Yeah right.

Due to the fact that I dared point out some facts about New Zealand obviously I am a very negative person. After reading my 1100 posts this is your conclusion.

The fact that we have good friends all over the world and friends that we could sit down to dinner with and discuss most things without the others getting upset is probably what I am used to. Usually it is how issues get resolved.


From a Kiwi perspective, I understand where you are coming from.

Dustybin

Bob- Vic man just let it lie......
Vic - well i would have let it lie but you wouldn't let it lie,
Bob - But i couldn't let it lie
Vic - you should have let me let it lie
Bob - you wouldn't let me let it lie,
Vic - i would have let it lie, but you never let me let it lie

and so on!

carry on!

Beachcombers

Actually there has only been one response, but don't let the facts get in your way, Campbells!

As for the whole "The point of discussion is - Kiwi’s and we were discussing rudeness in New Zealand etc. ", ever thought it could just be you?

When ever you get started on one of your rants, I have this South African Basil Fawlty image appearing.

Carry on!

Yotty

Isn't a sucessful emigration like marrying the woman of your dreams, accentuating the positives and glossing over the bad bits?

Campbells

Funny that you pop up Beachcombers, I actually thought it was you having the go. Maybe it is

Yeah, maybe it is just me and NZ is sweet as.

Hey, has rugby got something to do with this ?

Hey bud, Basil hails from the UK

See you are full of the joys yourself.

Yeah, the bloody South Afrcans. Gee, what a good looking bunch and they deserved to win.

whitesand

Campbells, I just have to quote you what the great man said, 'Up with this I shall not put.'

Have a nice day.

Campbells

Yeah,

Some of these posters are more like

Yabba from lower Hutt

Bellasmum

Campbell thanks for the selective "marking" of my post 79. I take it I failed.

I am sure that it is you who will have the last word in here .... meanwhile enjoy the power of your great worldly knowledge of all things Kiwi, assumptions and all

By the way MOH has been in NZ 37 years. Britain is his country of birth, but NZ is his home of choice and for that reason he calls himself a Kiwi. That to his way of thinking does not mean he has denounced his country of birth.

Happy now !