pornopants

You can still have respect for Maori, but to discount the importance of the language as you seem to, demonstates a lack of undersatanding of the issues. I do not know you, but I would suggest (simply from your posts on here) that you do do not have a healthy respect for Maori history and culture.

On your second point, are there not many Pakeha doing the same? Especially pedalling anti-Maori sentiment to put themselves forward?


Hi Michelle - Did you get a job after your study? Or are you still off to Oz? My wife has started and is really enjoying the job. the salary has turned out to be c. $10k p.a. better than we were expecting too, so an added bonus. Hope that you are working and enjoying it.

Justcol

So tell me exactly why i need a healthy respect for all the work shy slackers
i see every day when i'm hard at work.

Newfies

I have to admit in a strange kind of way I agree with colandros.

I have a certain degree of respect for some Maori not all. If you actually go in to all the ins and out of their culture and history it is rather very gruesome and nasty. What they have now adapted to is a mixture of other religions and beliefs to suit their needs at that given time. As an example their head is meant to be 'tapu' sacred. I in my job have to touch the head on a very frequent basis and not once has any maori relative asked or told me not to.

I have dealt with alot of them and I take each one as I find them most are nice people, but alot are out for what they can get for free. There are the gang members that cause trouble and are rude and very intimidating. There are alot more valid argument but I wont go into all the details.

As to the OP I wouldnt worry too much about the language at the moment as you will pick it up when you get here there are course that you can attend if you so wish to. I never have and dont feel the need to.
Language is a 'koha' gift and I am sure ou will be fine
'Harae mai' to the forum 'Welcome'!

bourbon-biscuit

Nobody's saying you should- just don't imagine that ALL (or even most) Maori are work-shy slackers just because the only Maori you see in your life are.

bourbon-biscuit

along with every other human society ...

Yeah, but I think you'll find the common denominator is more to do with soci-economic groups than culture alone, given you find this sort of 'normalising of anti-social behaviours' across all cultures, but more prevalently so where there's less afluence and the resultant aspirations etc.

Justcol

I work alongside and am close to lots of maori and i will say nothing on here
that i wouldnt /havent already discussed with them.
The maori i know work hard are educated and try hard to distance themselves
from those who taint their culture.
Unfortunately i see far more slackers than workers so you can see its hard
not to generalize

pricklykina

It's easy not to generalise if you try...just like I'm not swearing

Dewb09

Erm perhaps the workers are well at work, so guess you missed them

Dewb

pornopants

You originally seem to be saying that you can/do have a healthy respect for Maori culture, but then flip to say that how can you respect a culture that has so many slackers. The respect of the culture has very little to do with what you think of some of the population, though the last two statements tell me that you are indeed unable to separate the two.

Are you aware of what would be considered a successful citizen in Maori culture? Similarly, when Maori are presented as underachieving in education, against who's standards is this underachievement measured?

Pakeha place our system of beliefs upon Maori and struggle to understand that Maori are not happy to always be judged by these values.

I have really enjoyed finding out more about Maori culture and have found Maori to be similar to every other race, having both good and bad aspects in their communities. I have to say that the more that you immerse yourself in a culture (and do not impose your own values on them), not just paying them lip service, then the more respect you get back. This is the same the world over though isn't it? Or is this a generalisation?

Newfies

So you will he aware then that by calling yourself and other white people 'Pakeha' you are actually being insulting and calling yourself and others 'pig flea'!
I for one am not a pig flea along with all other white people that are born on this land whos previous generations have lived here.
Why are people who have had several generations of ancestors born and brought up here still classed as outsiders and pig fleas? Why is it that they only have the option to relate to being a eurpoean New Zealander on government paperwork, when most have never left the shores of New Zealand?

Pakeha was a work fromed by the 'maori tangata' (original man), as an insult to the white european settlers. Though again you have to be aware that they were not the original man but the moriories were. There is alot of myths and fables surrounding these people but they did exsist.

A prefered word to describe people that are not born in New Zealand is 'toe-iwi' which translates into 'remaining - tribe/nation/race'.

I just had to clear that up as I hate people being insulted!

pornopants

It has not been clearly defined where the term Pakeha came from. It is a common perception that the term is white pig (I have never heard pig flea before) but there is no written or oral record of where the term orginated from. I find it the easiest way to describe non-Maori NZ'ers, sorry if it caused offence, I am quite happy to be called Pakeha.

An interseting Maori viewpoint on the origin and meaning can be seen here:

http://www.maorinews.com/writings/pa...her/pakeha.htm

Newfies

It was actally described to me by a maori elder and there are several sources book and the internet that decribe pakeha as a pig flea here is one that I have just googled, there are many more reliable sources if you look for them.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/mao...pakeha-maori/2

The trouble with maori language is that is wasn't written as we know it today untill the white european settled and assisted in writing the language down hence why there is huge discepancies with the Treaty of Waitangi translation. That in itself is another topic al together.

There are also huge debates as to how alot of the words are pronounced. For example Whakatane is is 'wh' or 'f' of 'ph' sounding as you prounounce it?
It is one of the bones of contention with maori tangata and toeiwi people.

Again as for the OP, as this thread seems to have gone way off course, congrats on wanting to learn about another language but you will pick it up alot easier when you are here as proununciation is everything as it can be really easy as like any other language to insult someone without realising.
"Kia waimarie' Good Luck!

(You have to bear in mind that 'kai' on its own means food and 'waimarie' means still waters but put them together in a scentence they mean 'good luck').

pornopants

The Word Pakeha

Pakeha, which is a Maori term for the white inhabitants of New Zealand, was in vogue even prior to 1815. Its original meaning and origin are obscure, but the following are possible origins, the first being the most probable:

1.

From pakepakeha: imaginary beings resembling men.
2.

From pakehakeha: one of the sea gods.
3.

From keha: a flea.
4.

From poaka: a pig.

Its use was in no sense derogatory.

It is an interesting debate, as the above from the link you posted suggested there are many possibilities. The most important for me is the last sentence which I have bolded. I prefer to think of myself as one of the sea gods


I too applaud the OP for their attitude towards learning the language and wish them luck. I believe that it will only do them good in integrating here and will help them to be part of a more inclusive society. I know that when someone attempts to speak my own language to me, when it is not their first language I appreciate the effort that they have made.

UKNZAUS

I'm sure if you research it enough, you will find that these 'work shy slackers' stretch across ALL nationalities/cultures here in New Zealand. Or are you trying to specify one race?

Justcol

Why are you trying to a smart arse?
yes i am speciying one race.
Read the papers.
15 % of maori are out of work
5% of pakeha are out of work
There are 625000 people claiming maori ancestry
in NZ, almost 94000 are out of work.
625000 is the total figure including minors not yet
old enough to work so the actual % of adult maori
out of work will be much higher.
Various socio ecconomic reasons for this that i wont
go into here as we've strayed a little from the OP