Kids and schooling standards
 

Well

Been here nearly three years now, when we arrived my son who was seven seemed to be a year ahead. But alas, three years latter he has been dragged down to the NZ standard. Do any other posters feel their kids education is gonna suffer for living in NZ. The future is not rosy for your kids in the long term, they will soon do a sharp exit when they are old enough as there is nothing to keep them here, especially Canterbury.

So all of you prospective immigrants beware, short term gain long term pain.

So much so back to the UK it is.

Along with this, NZ has not lived up to expectations in other departments as well, It's sold as a lifestyle change the only advantage I have is I only work part time. Basically there is nothing to do here. Christchurch can be done in a day, then what? Limited activities and limited access to the countryside.

But I suppose it's what you are accustomed to, just to many downsides to list.

Returning to the kids, when they have flown the nest, are you happy to spend the rest of your life here with your immediate family thousands of miles away?

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

I know that happens, but my impression is that most young kiwis do their OEs and ultimately return to NZ, or if not then East Coast Australia. Personally I will look forward to visiting them overseas, and of course cross my fingers they will return in time.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

We got here in July,just as the kids had finished a full year of schooling back home. When we got here we had the thoughts of do we make them repeat 6 months?? and allow them to settle in and not need to worry about the school work or jump ahead 6 months?? and see how they settle. The Principal made the decision to do the former,but we wish he had done the latter. My boys are bored out their heads and know much more than their class mates. I am trying my best to ensure they do not fall away from their present levels and capabilities by encouraging reading,extra maths, research etc but do not want them to be too far ahead so that they are bored in class!!!!AAARRGGHH it is really frustrating. Having said that cannot fault the school or staff in any way,it is the system.

Phyl x

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Good points. I'm not so sure that the education is not up to standard, but it is organised differently. Kids are pushed harder earlier in UK. In NZ they are let alone more in those early years and personal difference is recognised (e.g, readiness for reading) although I have to admit that not all schools have an extension programme for the bright ones and this has frustrated me with some of mine. In my kids school they don't get homework apart from reading until Year 4, after that it is often just reading and spelling until Year 6. It could be more interesting, but on the other hand they used to give everyone homework sheets with things on like Get your parent to read you a story each night, go shopping with mum, play a board game 3 times a week and I'm so glad that's over because it felt like making a chore of the ordinary things you do at home. I think in NZ they celebrate more that everyone is not academic but still good at something. However, there is the tall poppy syndrome where you tend to be cut down to size if you stand out.

As for having done ChCh in a day - how? It's not huge but there is a fair amount to do and to revisit - art galleries, antarctic centre, QEII park and pool, Avon punting, loads of restaurants and clubs, and there are some lovely places within a short drive - nice beaches at Sumner and Brighton, ski fields only a short drive away, Akaroa, Kaikoura, transalpine train, West Coast, Hanmer Springs to name a few. I guess it depends what you like to do. But then I live in Timaru and I definitely feel like there isn't much to do sometimes in Timaru.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

I guess if you're a person who needs manufactured entertainment given to you on a plate, then you could do ChCh - and many other places in NZ - in a day. On the other hand, if you have some imagination and initiative, there are plenty of things to do, wherever you live. You could take up a sport, learn a musical instrument, join a service club, take up fishing, learn to windsurf on the estuary, help with the local scout group etc etc etc. I think if you're a theme park / shopping mall / wandering around historical places sort of person then NZ has little to offer and you're better off in Europe or America.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

As someone who was educated from age 8 in NZ (Canterbury in fact) and then went back to UK for my tertiary education, I'm afraid I can't see where the OP is coming from on education. My experience was that my academic expertise was on a par or better than my fellow students, which is not unsurprising given that we had been using UK A level papers to practice for our 6th and 7th form exams in NZ. I also found I had a better breadth of knowledge, having studied and been examined in at least 5 subjects throughout my secondary schooling, compared to UK students who had generally been restricted to 3 for their A levels. That was in the 80s though and I guess it has changed. I work quite closely with several young NZ graduates though, and they generally seem to be well educated.

Our oldest boy is approaching the end of his first year at school here in NZ and we're impressed so far. He has good reading, writing and spelling skills. Mathematics not quite so good. He also gets involved in other activities as part of school such as athletics, dancing, bible studies, cross-country, singing. In general it seems a good well-rounded education at primary level so far. So I don't think you're writing off your kids by moving to NZ.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Ok where I am coming from, he is ten and has had no homework really in the three years we have been here.

One decile ten school (Ohoka) and one school in Parklands. He is average in most subjects except maths at which he is very good, but he is going to really struggle when he goes to Secondary school in the UK. Miles behind where I was.

I agree the sports and activities are encouraged more here and that is good but the lack of academic learning here will disadvantage him eventually.

Regarding your dig about no initiative, people like different things I have been to most places once that's about it. You have no idea!! Cycling is crap here Banks Peninsular gets boring and everywhere else is flat and dangerous with all the local hoons. No where to run and I don't agree with hunting and the mentality of killing the wildlife on purpose with their cars. (Duck Killing is a pass time round here)

I can't stand the thought of my kids growing up like these mindless morons that seem to infest the place with their insular attitude.

So don't come having a pop at me with your snide comments.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Dear oh dear what on earth is it that people coming here want!

I just dont get it. Chch isnt my favourite place in NZ but beats hands down what we had in the UK.

School here for our kids has been great.They got here and were put into the year above the one they should be in and hence with children a year plus older than them. They thrived and still are and are doing really well in all areas.

They get homework every night of some sort as well.Did it ever cross your mind to ask for extra homework rather than just leave it for three years.

Heck back in the UK it was ALL about the bloody SATS and the teachers were driven by that to the detrement of the education.

My eldest two daughters were in the top ten percent at there uk school and guess what they remaind so here and moved from high school to uni .

Why is it always the schools fault?

The children 'leaving' and going back to uk or aussie is a great thing in my book and I will encourage them to have that adventure when the time comes.

You must have lived in a part of the UK that I missed to think that NZ is as bad as you say.I reckon the lack of people here,outside entertainment,great countryside and beaches and on and on more than make up for the stressed overcrowded,, rude full to the brim classes , kids who a 7 tell adults to *** off,no respect,unsafe uk.

Good luck hope when you go HOME its all you want it to be


george

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Yawn.

And yet, as is pointed out quite often by those in the know, NZ does Very Well Indeed in the long run according to PISA. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program...ent_Assessment and follow the links on there to the project if you want to read more. AFAIK 2009 results are not out yet.

You're taking your cake out the oven half baked and speculating on the finished product ;)

Who says I have to? Who knows what they'll choose, although I would imagine, given the wanderlust we've inspired in them and the fantastic education they're getting, that they'll almost certainly want to live and explore overseas. Good on them :thumbup:

I refer you to the link above and the study that suggests the opposite is true.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

BTW, fwiw, recent research is suggesting 'homework' isn't all it's cracked up to be and many schools make an educated, proactive decision not to give children homework in the light of this knowledge.

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"been everywhere once" is eactly the sort of shallow, spoon-fed attitude I was referring to. I was brought up in Canterbury and had a very varied childhood that included sports, music, drama, hunting, sailing, windsurfing, church, etc etc. If you find my honesty snide then tough. Have a nice flight back to UK

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Same old rhetoric same old people, you can quote as many facts as you can dredge up it's my experience. Fact he's gonna be behind and need extra tuition next year.

Yes I would prefer them to go abroad when they are mature unlike 17 & 18 year old kids here.

Well from what I have seen in the higher education establishment I attended here was a woefully substandard High School graduate. Half the class were slow and did not have a basic grasp of Physics or Maths.

Fact, my actual experience not hearsay or contrived stats.

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George or Toni whatever your name is, The Peak District kicks Chch ass for recreation and amenities, Oh and civilized conversation.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

The snide,was referring to your remark (if you have some imagination and initiative) inferring I had none.

Now shallow, spoon fed my my.

Ah brought up in Canterbury!!! explains a lot.

Oh and hunting is pretty backward, you get some sort of thrill killing animals? it's as bad as the fox hunting jerks at home.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

I would like to add a comment here.
I have two sons anged 15 and 18. In the uk the were considered very
good students by their teachers and attended the local grammer
school where they were both doing very well.
Both had already sat certain GCSE's at 14 and passed with A and B grades.
We arrived in NZ and due to the timing of the school years they both entered
school and re did about half of the year they had left in the uk.
Innitially they both said they were just going over things they had already done
and got quite frustrated.
Like most concerned parents when the following new school year started we
kept a close eye on their progress, the last thing we wanted was for all the hard
work they had done to slip away. It was comforting to hear from both of them that
they were surprised at how things were going, they both said that the work they were
being given was easilly equal to UK standards and they both felt that the work was very
challenging..
The eldest one thought that the different teaching methods used in NZ had
been good for him as it taught him to be more flexible in his out look and it
had given him a confidence boost knowing that he was able to adapt to new
teaching methods and apply his knowledge in different ways.
These he thinks are things that he can take with him when he starts university
and also into the work place when the time comes.
Both my boys attend Cambridge high school which is an ordinary NZ school.
The point i am trying to make is that there are a lot of people who knock the NZ
education system but if you take a serious intrest in your childrens education,
ask questions of both you children and the school then the NZ system is as good as any.
If you moan and complain about it being crap to or in front of you kids they will
also moan and complain and take a negative view of school in general.
I have always believed that as parents it is our job to promote education at
whatever level as a good positive thing.
Kids need to understand that any kind of knowledge is a good thing and that
learning does not end when the school bell rings, its a life skill that so many
parents today do not pass on.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

The primary school my young children attend provides a very stimulating array of programmes for its Gifted and Talented children ( the G.A.T.E programme ). Future problem solving, student think tank and for its top maths students , Otago University Maths problem solving. These are funded directly by the Education Dept which has stressed to schools that they must meet the needs of very clever children. The objective is to eventually have all schools throughout the country participating.
These children are not deserted after primary school either. Once identified, they are encouraged to continue in these " independent thinkers " groups throughout their remaining school years.

I feel a bit sad to be saying this , but I really hope my children enjoy travelling and living overseas as much as their Olds did, before they returned home to NZ to settle down.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Mi McCuddy1 and iy's george by the way toni is my wifes name.:)

my bikes better than your bikes better than....

could go on all day.

thing is what I think dosnt matter one bit as in the end its your life and your family and if what you have found here isnt working for you then who am I to say any different.

My points are to balance out your views with that of what you think.

If you find the old area of england you lived to be far better for the things YOU and your family like/want then so be it.

I hope you still find it as good when you go home as go home I think you should go as if you cant find happiness here then why hang about in missery?

On another point if you cant find things to do in a place as big and varied as chch then heck head in sand springs to mind.

We lived in cumbria for 5 years prior to moving to NZ and my view on getting here was that NZ had all the same great views but with real towns/cities as well.

In pembrok.... you show me where you can actually use the land as freely as you can here,where you can fish in practically ANY river catch AND eat the fish,hunt have as nice a beaches that arnt full of yob's with hoodies or kids telling adults to #### off. Show me the class with the un stressed and un crowded classroom with the 'average' child shoved to the back so as not to disturb the bright children with questions the teacher dosnt have time to answer, show me the school that isnt locked up like colditz with bars all around and on and on. Heck our school here has a sign on it saying 'all are welcome to use the school playground and equipment when the school is closed but please respect it'

As for the getting here and being put back a year or so well Der! just speak to the principal and ask for little ??? to be moved up a class.We did for all four of ours and had no problems as that put them where they should be.

Its allways someone elses fault springs to mind!

GEORGE (just so you know:rofl:)

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

hi just my two penny's worth.

my boy is 9 , 10 in december, at his school there are english kids whose parents opted to put there kids in the year above their age and all of them are struggling to keep up, i opted to put mine in his own year group he is the youngest in the class and i find he does just aswell here as in the uk, he even struggles a bit himself sometimes, they get homework every week and even i thought it was hard!!! they are doing maths work at age 9 that i didnt come across until high school in the uk,

but as you have made the decision to go back to the uk i wish you all the best and hope your kids get the education thats right for them.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Well Georgie boy

If you hadn't started out with (Dear oh dear what on earth is it that people coming here want!)

Then just put your point of veiw fine!!!!!

But alas you had to get your little dig in first. Regarding CHC, hell it's full of hodies here more so than where I came from. They all hang around the shopping mall down town.


School playgrounds I agree are a lot better in NZ and also the social side, I suppose. But swearing here is a lot more prevalent among the young kids, it's all over the radio and seems tolerated by adults.

Regarding the Lake district, but not having lived there the hiking and real towns like Ambleside and Keswick I like a lot more PERSONALY.

Each to their own without your superior attitude.


Martin C Just so you know

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

If the objective is to eventually have all schools throughout the country participating in the GATE programme, then one would have to ask just how seriously this objective is being pursued. Words are cheap - and nowhere more so, as it took me a long while to discover, than in New Zealand! This objective was first widely reported in the media at least 6+ years ago when it was announced that all schools were to begin immediately to assess their gifted students' needs and get a programme started within a year. Well, more than 6 years later and not one of the schools in Christchurch that my children have attended or even that are anywhere near our area, most of which are 10- or high decile, has offered the programme. As we live in an area very popular with British immigrants, I would not want anyone reading this from outside of NZ to get the mistaken idea that their 'gifted' or academically-high-achieving children are necessarily going to be well catered for here by the kinds of programmes described by some posters here as though they are, or are even soon to be, 'the norm'.

I would point out too that it's very easy to be taken in by the spin that is put on just about everything here, especially about the education system. It is far too easy to be seduced by beautiful words, about how "our system teaches children how to think" for instance, or like "she'll be right". For some of you, soothing positive words alone will be good enough for you. For some of you, the schools you left behind in UK sound bad enough that most any change would be for the better. But for some of you, your brains will at some point (and unfortunately this will be later rather than sooner for many) get back into reality-mode focus, and with eyes wide open what many of you will then see will not at all jibe with the things you've been told or the pictures you've been painted. That goes for much more than just the education system here as well, by the way.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

fair enuf McCuddy1 boy:rofl:

just a point of view and one to balance out all the opinions you have put regarding all the bad things you see here.

you dont like it here I do and thats fine, and dear oh dear if thats not ok well what is!

And again I say what on earth is it people want from here.

What I take from your posts is that the country sucks,the people suck ,the schools suck,the outdoor entertainment sucks...

I dont agree hence my posts.

each to there own and hope you escape this hell hole of a place asap;)

georgie boy

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Well Boy George

You have every right to post what you want if you disagree with me, most people on here disagree.

But!!!! most just reply factually without the snide remarks unlike yourself, who feels the need to demean someone else's point of view.

Oh and talking of schools, in Canterbury it's quite normal to have a pig hunt as a fund raising day for the school. Also a nice rabbit shooting contest for the kids and the to top it off a competition to see who can through the dead carcasses the furthest!!!!!!!!!!

How civilised is that?

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Wow... all you posters saying your kids dont get homework surprised me. I'm a newbie to all this school stuff tbh... my son started as a NE last November... he has had homework literally from Day 1!! He is now a year 1.... he gets reading every night and he is given homework every Monday which for him has to be handed in on the Wednesday. It can be anything from "what did you do in the holidays with your family?" ...this week it was to design and produce a whole menu which we did together.... sometimes I have to ask the teacher what it means? lol:o

My friends child is same age and goes to the school in the next village which is Maraetai, they dont get homework there.... so after hearing you all saying your kids dont get homework, looks like our school is different to all the rest?

I am very happy with Beachlands School... the teachers seem good and the FERN (friendship, encouragement, respect and nurture) values are drummed into them all the time. Ive never known kids of all ages to be so kind, polite and look after much smaller children so well... its refreshing and lovely to see.

My son is doing very well and although is one of the youngest in his year 1/2 class is one of the top readers in there which makes me very proud. He is coming on in leaps and bounds and long may is continue eh? (love the Eh? after everything...since he started school he now speaks kiwi! lol)

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

I didn't say he wouldn't! You're moving him from the NZ school system to the UK one, which is totally different. MY point was that you can't really judge an entire school system by EITHER your experience or by the standard your kid(s) will be at compared to a UK school system when you return them. MY point was that the best means of comparing is to look for a more objective measure, as neither you nor I can ever be. I provided you with a link to an objective indepth assessment of OECD education systems. You don't want to accept what that shows about NZ's education system because you want to leave NZ and find as much justification for your choice as possible.

It's perfectly plausable that the school your kid(s) attend here in NZ isn't a great school or the education they're getting doesn't suit them- but that doesn't mean that NZ education is crap or 'behind' or that the UK system is superior.



Erm, is your ego so massive/ your experience of the world so small that you imagine your 'experience' to be more worthy of being labelled FACT than the conclusions of PISA? :rofl: That's too funny :rofl:

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

My ego massive ,ha ha The fact is I attended an educational institute here in Chc NZ. Out of 18 students half of the class had not been taught basic
Maths. Oh and I am not the brightest spark.

That is a fact anyone can draw their own conclusions and how do I ignore that as I witnessed it first hand.


Also I don't think I labeled all education crap in NZ, but you can look where Auckland uni is in the rankings. You can also see where the UK ones are.

Nuff said.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

:rofl:

I will back off from this thread now as its loosing the point.

But I have to say "(Dear oh dear what on earth is it that people coming here want!) if thats a snide comment then your skin must be really thin!

As for the hunting thing I say thats all good in my book.

Rabbits are a pest and taste good,when they hunt things here they generaly eat them and I bet here more kids know that their meat comes from an animal and not from a supermarket shelf! are the price of a good balanced education:rofl:

Funny how for some its all about where something comes on a 'table' as if that means we are top so you must be crap. Education is about alot of different things and not just about what is on paper.

By the time you leave high school all you need is the basics as from there on in there are polytechnics and courses galore in which to push forward.

anyhow im away from this post now as its in danger of turning into a he sadi she sed fing (whoops uk education no homework sorry)

boy george

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Thats terrible to hear, no wonder you're peeved. Sad to tar the whole system due to your bad experiences - but thats only natural. You sound very bitter about NZ in general. Im guessing you've been through some tough times. Pax.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

It's a difficult subject and there are many different variables to be taken into account. However I have to say that both of my children have done well so far in the NZ education system (although the NCEA exam results from the current raft of exams that they are sitting may well tell a different story :eek:). We moved out here in June 08, after son had completed his GCSEs. It turned out that he'd achieved 11 passes at GCSE, including Maths, English & Spanish....which 3 subjects he also sat again at NCEA level 1 standard the following November. Now different school, different syllabus, different texts in English, and of course no credits to take forward with him. But he didn't do that great in NCEA because they were testing a different set of skills. Particularly in maths, he found that harder over here with more geometry & trigonometry etc.....and less algebra :thumbup:

I'm not about to start debating the strengths & weaknesses of either education system largely because I'm not particularly well informed, and I can only comment on my own experiences. But my children are thriving at school in NZ, they're working hard, they have substantial amounts of homework (although getting them to do it can be a challenge :eek:) & the work seems to be stimulating them, challenging them and they are learning. Ultimately that is really all that concerns me....that my children are able to attain the academic achievements they are capable of and that they have some enjoyment of the process. NZ is giving them that. Each to their own, I really don't think that there is a definitive answer to which system is best....they're different, and ultimitaly both systems turn out a good number of well educated young people, equally both systems fail a few.

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When I was in NZ last year (as a tourist) I got talking to a 16 year old lad in Wellington, who had emigrated to NZ 2 years earlier and I was amazed when he said that the standard of ed'n in NZ was lower than that of the UK and the discipline in school just as bad, even worse, bearing in mind he previously attended a bog std comp in Peterborough.

As a parent of kids now in their 20s, who have been through the GCSE system it seems hard to fathom that education could be even softer in NZ than that which currently exists in Blighty.

I don't hold any opinion on the NZ education structure but am only telling you what I was told by a lad who was experiencing it.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

Our kids school runs the GATE programme. Our sons been in it since July 07. We're in Rangiora.

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

I found it hard to believe schools in NZ could be worse than some London schools like the one my daughter went to where she cried and didn't want to go because of troublemakers:(

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

When we arrived here, within the first week my son had been exposed to words he hadn't heard before. being called a white English FU**ING nigger. Bullying both physical and psychological has happened in both schools he has attended.
Mainly by the older kids. I have had to teach him to defend himself which is pretty sad. Some of the kids are like feral animals mainly because their parents don't give a ****.

Both schools have been at opposite ends of the grading scale 5 & 10. Oh and in the decile 10 school Ohoka, there are plaques on the wall of the parents who donate the most, and it might be a coincidence but their kids are in all the school teams.

I the major cities it may be better, but my South African friend had to remove his daughter from one of the better girls schools in Chc, because she found the swearing and behavior intolerable.

Good schools maybe but plenty of bad.

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I'm sure I read somewhere recently that NZ yet again for another aspect, was unenviably high up the OECD tables for school bullying. Best to be aware of this in advance.
There was a high profile case recently where I was unpleasantly surprised to read in the press that the school was stalling on dealing with bullies because incidents had happened off school premises...that was never an issue when a friend of mine was bullied in UK...admittedly many years ago..twas nipped in the bud though...because the school gave a damn and took responsibility.

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OK, I don't have any experience of NZ schools but I am a teacher in England with overseas teaching experience and I feel the need to share my views of the English system.

Unfortunately it has changed massively in the last few years. I'm a Physics teacher teaching general science (11 - 14 year olds), Science GCSE (14 - 16 year olds) and A level Physics (16 - 18 year olds).

The Science has been dumbed down to an extent where little 'real' science is still taught. It is more fluffy and generalised. More like teaching about global issues than Science.

In class recently I had to teach 12 year olds how to add decimels as they hadn't been taught how to. I had to teach 16 year olds how to draw a graph and how to add fractions as they couldn't / didn't know how to. I am currently trying to teach A level students how to rearrange equations and other basic math skills as they are unable to do simple maths. This is not a quirk in the school I am in, its the norm in the UK now.

Another issue is the A level standards. The students have to complete practical assessments as part of the syllabus. These tasks (which are part of their final exam grade) have been so simplified not only are they told how to set up the practical experiment, they are told exactly which measurements to take, they are told which graphs to draw and how to draw it. It really has become a bit of a joke.

My wife and I are due to have our first child any day and are looking to get out of the UK as we have lost all faith in the UK education system. And thats before we get into the conduct and behaviour of the kids in and outside of the classroom.

So as someone who once left and then returned to the UK I would suggest anyone who is looking to return to really think hard about it. Why did you leave in the first place as the reality is more likely that this place has got a lot worse in the time you've been away, not better.

Hope it helps.

:D

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All I can say on the matter is that we have had four children in the NZ schooling system, my eldest had aleady taken his NCEA level one when we returned back to the UK, the top schools where we live do not recognise those so he sat GCSE here and only had nine months to sudy and take them. He took six and ended up with four A stars, One A and one B, and is now studying A levels at a top school and hoping to go to Loughborough.The others are also doing very well and ahead in maths, so there you go NZ rocks but the NCEA levels are not recognised that well so be warned.

:thumbup:

Re: Kids and schooling standards
 

From memory Auckland is ranked about 59th in the world which is an excellent ranking. Pretty much better than most Western European countries and many British institutions.

The bottom line is that NZ graduates don't have a problem being employed anywhere in the world and many are extremely successful. That's the reality and the end result is really all that matters.

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Fair point although GCSE's and A levels are not really recognised anywhere outside the UK.

Most European countries now use the IB programme of study in place of A level and several schools in the UK are starting to follow suit.

The North American AP system is not recognised by the UK, despite being of a higher standard than the A level. (I have taught the AP programme and it is around the level of a first year UK university course)

So qualifications not being recognised is really not so much of an issue, its the standard of the material being delivered I am unhappy with.

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Only a few and I stress a few in the private sector. The problem with the IB is that it is too general. You don't have the option of specialising in either the arts or sciences, it has to be both.

The IGCSE which is tougher than the GCSE isn't specifically recognised at universities. Therefore if you get a B in IGCSE which is probably better than an A at GCSE, universities don't take that on board.