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Is john Key's Government out of control?

Is john Key's Government out of control?

Old Apr 16th 2013, 12:00 pm
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Default Is john Key's Government out of control?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/your-views...ectid=10876604
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Old Apr 16th 2013, 12:04 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Originally Posted by Stephen Jones View Post
Perhaps on this issue, but would the others do any differently?
T'is the way of the world these days. Frankly, the Chinese are spying on us already, may not be such a bad thing to have the government watching our backs. Just saying like....
The Chinese employ a massive amount of resource in spying on citizens of other countries, let alone governments. Exfiltration of information being the principle target. I would be more afraid of that frankly...
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Old Apr 16th 2013, 7:25 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

"Prime Minister John Key says the Government Communications Security Bureau should be able to spy on New Zealanders if the right level of oversight is met."

I can't believe this isn't already allowed, seems like common sense. Sure the terrorist threat in NZ is low but Id bet there is plenty of other serious crime committed by NZers that could be found and stopped with strong prosecutions and convictions assisted by this kind of evidence gathering.

If some guy in an unmarked white van wants to sit outside my house listening in to my Skype calls back to mum and dad in the UK iv got no problem with it. If your not doing anything wrong why worry.

I'd rather they had to tools available and chose when its appropriate to use them rather than need them but have their hands tied.
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 6:42 am
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Originally Posted by madao View Post
"Prime Minister John Key says the Government Communications Security Bureau should be able to spy on New Zealanders if the right level of oversight is met."

I can't believe this isn't already allowed, seems like common sense. Sure the terrorist threat in NZ is low but Id bet there is plenty of other serious crime committed by NZers that could be found and stopped with strong prosecutions and convictions assisted by this kind of evidence gathering.

If some guy in an unmarked white van wants to sit outside my house listening in to my Skype calls back to mum and dad in the UK iv got no problem with it. If your not doing anything wrong why worry.

I'd rather they had to tools available and chose when its appropriate to use them rather than need them but have their hands tied.
Ditto, and the fact that the current law prohibits surveillance on anyone with residency - including a foreigner who has just moved here with PR, from any country - is surely a massive security hole.
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 5:06 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Originally Posted by madao View Post
[B]"
If some guy in an unmarked white van wants to sit outside my house listening in to my Skype calls back to mum and dad in the UK iv got no problem with it. If your not doing anything wrong why worry.

.
I would have a problem with that particular point. I am doing nothing wrong and the state should not interfere with my privacy without very good reason. I am not against all surveillance by all means but it should be on a case by case basis and with very strong oversight. It does appear that this is what JK is suggesting from the Herald so we'll have to wait and see! The problem is that there always tends to be 'creep' when these things become allowable though...where do people draw the line?

Funny how we in the west deplore other countries for their surveillance/police states yet are happily walking into the same situation.

What is the justification for this anyway? Why change what is working already? Because other countries do it, because we can and the technology does exist to enable it to be done?
Have the risks of terrorism/crime etc become so high that this level of surveillance is worth it? I don't think so.

Stephen Jones-what is your view on this since you started the thread?

Last edited by Persephone; Apr 17th 2013 at 5:33 pm.
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 6:55 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Remember, they will need a warrant to do anything, and they must have reasonable suspicion of a specific crime.
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

I don't really expect they will be randomly spying on us all like that. Even if they were listening to my Skype calls im sure they would get bored pretty quickly of my parents constantly asking "whats the Weather is like over there" and how the seasons are reversed.

I trust legislation would clearly define the specific grounds required for any surveillance & permissions needed by the agency to start stop or continue this. As for creep I guess that depends how good the oversight committee is in monitoring the activities and taking action when the line is crossed.

I was going to say we have to remember this is the GCSB not the NSA or GCHQ but seems they are already in it together to a certain level. I was already aware of this program but not the fact other countries including New Zealand are signed up, thought it was just the UK and USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

ECHELON is a name used in global media and in popular culture to describe a signals intelligence (SIGINT) collection and analysis network operated on behalf of the five signatory states to the UKUSA Security Agreement[1] (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, referred to by a number of abbreviations, including AUSCANNZUKUS[1] and Five Eyes).[2][3] It has also been described as the only software system which controls the download and dissemination of the intercept of commercial satellite trunk communications.[4]

So I guess even in NZ there is a good chance communication is routinely electronically screened for anything suspicious which warrants a human to have a look at. Perhaps The GCSB get around not spying in citizens or residents by letting the NSA and GCHQ do it and they then just receive intelligence back as a signatory to this program?

If you have a spare 25 minutes and want to know a bit more then the brilliant political activist comedian Mark Thomas made a program about it where he flew a hot air balloon over Menwith Hill.....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epWTJUajIdI
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 9:03 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Originally Posted by Persephone View Post
I would have a problem with that particular point. I am doing nothing wrong and the state should not interfere with my privacy without very good reason. I am not against all surveillance by all means but it should be on a case by case basis and with very strong oversight. It does appear that this is what JK is suggesting from the Herald so we'll have to wait and see! The problem is that there always tends to be 'creep' when these things become allowable though...where do people draw the line?

Funny how we in the west deplore other countries for their surveillance/police states yet are happily walking into the same situation.

What is the justification for this anyway? Why change what is working already? Because other countries do it, because we can and the technology does exist to enable it to be done?
Have the risks of terrorism/crime etc become so high that this level of surveillance is worth it? I don't think so.

Stephen Jones-what is your view on this since you started the thread?

I agree with you. The UK is moving toward this sort of thing - all for OUR 'security' of course...

I suggest those who say they have nothing to fear etc google Benjamin Franklin's quote on security & liberty
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 9:22 pm
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Default Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Originally Posted by madao View Post
I ]
I actually agree with you. A robust level of oversight and need for definite cause in order to use surveillance techniques is a necessary and very important consideration. Not a free for all. I realise my post was a bit mixed up in places
But I do feel that creep is something to be very careful of as surveillance only tends to move in one direction as technology becomes more advanced. There needs to be constant re evaluation of where a state is heading when it comes to issues of privacy. Nothing should be accepted purely because 'I'm doing nothing wrong so it doesn't matter'.

My extremely dull musings about the weather and the price of food are not likely to interest anyone but I still don't want someone else listening in on my private conversations.

Will have a look at the Mark Thomas link when I have a bit more time

Stephen - yes I wrote something like that in my original post before deleting it. People will accept a lot if they believe it is in the interests of their own safety. It doesn't matter whether that belief is real or exaggerated. The perception of danger is often very different to the actual risk.
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Old Apr 17th 2013, 9:23 pm
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Wink Re: Is john Key's Government out of control?

Your names are going on ze list!

I agree it's a rubbish situation but we democratically elected them twice and may well a third time. A little introspection on our own ability as citizens to perform our civil duty may be in order.
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