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On Humanism and Religion

On Humanism and Religion

Old Jun 12th 2014, 8:12 am
  #46  
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Wink Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by kimilseung
It is no ones job to do this.
...and that's exactly how the status quo was maintained for so long.
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Old Jun 12th 2014, 8:23 am
  #47  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Charismatic
...and that's exactly how the status quo was maintained for so long.
No it isn't, but I would go further to say that there is no status quo. At least in the developed west, including the USA.
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Old Jun 12th 2014, 11:25 am
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by kimilseung
No it isn't, but I would go further to say that there is no status quo. At least in the developed west, including the USA.
Well that seems a bit laconic, although probably enough words to communicate my point, but for politeness, I shall expand.

There is usually no onus on proving the negative, as it is more often than not impossible. There is an onus on proving positive claims. And to quote Carl Sagan (or whoever said it before him) "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". We do not expect anyone to disprove fairies, unicorns or any other non-provable extraordinary claim.

Prove to me that the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Orbiting Tea-pot, do not exist. These are ridiculous requests, no less than to prove the non-existence of any deity.

There is also the issue of defining what people mean by God, for most it is that personal, interventionist God. For others it is whatever cause resulted in the universe, or creation. I have few objections to the use of God to represent the "x" of the unknown origin or status before the big bang.

For many the word God is not a place holder for unknown knowledge, it is an answer to questions without (at present) answers. An alternative to inquiry. It is this refusal to dig for answers that has resulted in any status quo. But there has been no status quo. As those that have chosen to ask questions and only accept answers that have arguments and evidence have continued to explore and expand our knowledge of the universe, the scales have over time continued to shift, interrupted only when those who find answers to unasked questions in books, have erected impediments to research. From Hypatia having her eyes popped out and skinned alive to Galileo being confined under house arrest for heliocentrism.
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 2:23 am
  #49  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by kimilseung
From Hypatia having her eyes popped out and skinned alive to Galileo being confined under house arrest for heliocentrism.
The subject came up on the Canada forum and one poster would have us believe that the church invented education and universities.
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 2:30 am
  #50  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
The subject came up on the Canada forum and one poster would have us believe that the church invented education and universities.
I think they must have misspelt the word 'invaded' there ...

Off to find that thread now
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 2:33 am
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
I think they must have misspelt the word 'invaded' there ...

Off to find that thread now
http://britishexpats.com/forum/maple...volted-835262/

It started off being about an anti-abortion leaflet.
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 2:39 am
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
http://britishexpats.com/forum/maple...volted-835262/

It started off being about an anti-abortion leaflet.
Cheers, m'dear
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 1:54 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
The subject came up on the Canada forum and one poster would have us believe that the church invented education and universities.
I hear about some amazing feats of divine intervention from a work colleague who in my humble opinion is a total whack job: I mean on the upper end of the spectrum of believers who views virtually everything as a sign from God or can spin any situation into an example of his work at play.

This person told me that she was truly blessed to have her job because although they have absolutely none of the qualities or qualifications that the job description required, it was God sent her there so that she could grow and learn and be a better human being. It was God that led her to see the advertisement as she wasn't looking for a job at the time, but he then made her apply and also intervened in her getting the interview. Even though God knew she wasn't really what the manager was looking for, he showed her the path and wanted her to have that job, so that she could spread Gods word. *

* Just so we're all clear, it was all Gods' will and nothing at all to do with the fact that the hiring manager goes to the same Church.
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 2:00 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Bo-Jangles
I hear about some amazing feats of divine intervention from a work colleague who in my humble opinion is a total whack job: I mean on the upper end of the spectrum of believers who views virtually everything as a sign from God or can spin any situation into an example of his work at play.

This person told me that she was truly blessed to have her job because although they have absolutely none of the qualities or qualifications that the job description required, it was God sent her there so that she could grow and learn and be a better human being. It was God that led her to see the advertisement as she wasn't looking for a job at the time, but he then made her apply and also intervened in her getting the interview. Even though God knew she wasn't really what the manager was looking for, he showed her the path and wanted her to have that job, so that she could spread Gods word. *

* Just so we're all clear, it was all Gods' will and nothing at all to do with the fact that the hiring manager goes to the same Church.
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Old Jun 13th 2014, 3:21 pm
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Bo-Jangles
I hear about some amazing feats of divine intervention from a work colleague who in my humble opinion is a total whack job: I mean on the upper end of the spectrum of believers who views virtually everything as a sign from God or can spin any situation into an example of his work at play.

This person told me that she was truly blessed to have her job because although they have absolutely none of the qualities or qualifications that the job description required, it was God sent her there so that she could grow and learn and be a better human being. It was God that led her to see the advertisement as she wasn't looking for a job at the time, but he then made her apply and also intervened in her getting the interview. Even though God knew she wasn't really what the manager was looking for, he showed her the path and wanted her to have that job, so that she could spread Gods word. *

* Just so we're all clear, it was all Gods' will and nothing at all to do with the fact that the hiring manager goes to the same Church.
Destiny that these Brethren should be togevver then.
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Old Jun 21st 2014, 6:08 pm
  #56  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Let’s be a little more sophisticated about our musings.


At least if you are willing to say there is a god you can argue it’s actually a human failing to believe in a just-world hypothesis. We cruelly perpetuate the indifference of the world to be a reflection of human status and natural order so inflicting undue suffering on fellow humans.

You think you are so clever and that you have a more sophisticated understanding or morality and ethics than god. But be honest…how often have you looked at someone begging for food and thought to yourself “probably deserves the humiliation” or "probably has it better than he lets on." You don’t like to admit it but it’s probably often if not every time.

Perhaps the humans still inflict the greatest misery and cruelty upon each other by pretending there is an order or system or ascribing meaning where there is none you can understand. For this there is no god to blame but belief can help you empathise with the random nature of human suffering.

So, you see, a rational conclusion is that the cruelty of humans that brings suffering can be tempered by believing in god. So god is a force for good in society, no?
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Old Jun 21st 2014, 6:28 pm
  #57  
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Wink Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by kimilseung
No it isn't, but I would go further to say that there is no status quo. At least in the developed west, including the USA.
Come off it. You really mean to say that if the philosophical "answers" Christian philosophy had been answered in a scientific, reductionist way people would still be Christian now? It's deeply engrained in our history and culture. To say there a status quo has not been maintained for some time indicates a huge denial of the present situation.
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Old Jun 21st 2014, 6:46 pm
  #58  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Charismatic
Let’s be a little more sophisticated about our musings.


At least if you are willing to say there is a god you can argue it’s actually a human failing to believe in a just-world hypothesis. We cruelly perpetuate the indifference of the world to be a reflection of human status and natural order so inflicting undue suffering on fellow humans.

You think you are so clever and that you have a more sophisticated understanding or morality and ethics than god. But be honest…how often have you looked at someone begging for food and thought to yourself “probably deserves the humiliation” or "probably has it better than he lets on." You don’t like to admit it but it’s probably often if not every time.

Perhaps the humans still inflict the greatest misery and cruelty upon each other by pretending there is an order or system or ascribing meaning where there is none you can understand. For this there is no god to blame but belief can help you empathise with the random nature of human suffering.

So, you see, a rational conclusion is that the cruelty of humans that brings suffering can be tempered by believing in god. So god is a force for good in society, no?
Human suffering is not random though. Tsunamis are caused by tectonic plate movement, not God's anger. People don't have enough to eat because of decisions made about the food we will raise and how we will distribute wealth.
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Old Jun 21st 2014, 7:26 pm
  #59  
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Default Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Charismatic
Come off it. You really mean to say that if the philosophical "answers" Christian philosophy had been answered in a scientific, reductionist way people would still be Christian now? It's deeply engrained in our history and culture. To say there a status quo has not been maintained for some time indicates a huge denial of the present situation.
I am not following what you are saying.
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Old Jun 21st 2014, 7:42 pm
  #60  
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Wink Re: On Humanism and Religion

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
Human suffering is not random though. Tsunamis are caused by tectonic plate movement, not God's anger. People don't have enough to eat because of decisions made about the food we will raise and how we will distribute wealth.
...and the events are so unpredictable as to appear random.

Well some people don't have enough to eat or a roof over their head or are excluded from the norms of a society. We often tend to treat this as being deserved rather than random, like poverty is a punishment for idleness and deserved by the recipient. At least with religious belief we can say the world is not a fair place and be compelled to action through empathy. Right?
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