wintersmith

Race makes a huge difference, and I'd like to note that 99.99% of NZ's population is not white. That said, most of you on this thread probably are, and you'd be right in thinking that you're outside of the target population for direct intimidation by violent losers.

Most of the North Island gangs are Maori. Most of the South Island gangs are white neo-Nazis. Look up "kim+murder+zealand" in Google News and you'll see a nice photo of one such specimen. I lived in Chch from October 2006 to April 2008. I regularly saw skinheads wearing kicky Nazi shirts with swastika tats. I was born in New York and lived in SF Bay before moving to NZ, so I'm pretty cool with people dressing up in wacky costumes. What shocked and dismayed me was how poorly 'nice' folks treated me, just because I'm of Asian descent. Well-dressed middle-aged couples chatting about how I should be deported, that vaunted Kiwi friendliness vanishing instantly as I step up to the cashier, being shouted at on the street, getting blocked and knocked into things on the sidewalk. And this is in the "Cultural Precinct" downtown area, where it's all offices and tourist destinations.

After the first couple of months of this nonsense, I tended to stay in. I worked from home and had this option. I've heard hundreds of Asians talk about getting drink bottles and water balloons thrown at them, and Asians (East, Southeast and South) apparently are targeted for assaults, petty theft etc. at a higher rate. That's why there was a 10,000-strong protest in Auckland this week by the Asian community. And you know what they get called in the papers? Vigilantes.

The question for all the white migrants on this thread is, are you all right with this? Most of you will be white middle-class, better protected from the roiling poverty, violence and racial tensions in this country. If you're an "I got mine" kind of person, go to it. But if you're the kind of person who wants to make your community a better place, it's going to be hard for you—particularly because you won't be perceived as having the right to speak up until you're "fully Kiwi". There is incredible suspicion of anything that can be branded "PC" in current Kiwi culture, and I know British migrants who have tried to be socially active and faced fierce resentment. All they wanted was help NZ avoid the kind of ethnic strife that the UK seems to have gotten into, but the reaction was "bloody Pom, telling us what to do."

Even for the white middle-class, violence and poverty can touch you in unexpected ways. There was a British couple in Chch who'd migrated to NZ 4 or 5 years ago, because they were afraid of the rising tide of crime in the UK. Their only daughter was killed on Edgeware Road when someone purposefully plowed into one of those massive youth street parties (there's nothing open in Chch after 4pm, so kids just text each other to gather somewhere and bum around). I have friends and acquaintances who are completely grief-stricken because their daughters have been sexually victimized. Age of consent is not enforced very much, at least in Canterbury, and NZ has the highest under-15 teen birth rate in the OECD. It's also a very macho culture, and the authorities have an indulgent attitude towards scumbags who are aggressive, even coercive, towards girls they know. Alcohol and drug use is rampant even in my jaded American eyes. If you're a fellow Yank, think not-quite-urban Nebraska. Add in the fact that you can drive at 15 and you don't need a car insurance, and you get a very high teen traffic fatality rate. Combined with child abuse, it gives NZ the highest rate of accidental and violent death (accidents, suicide, homicide, violence) for kids under 15 in the OECD.

I've lived in 7 other countries, so the whole "Every country has problems" is old hat for me. But it's ridiculous to think that that lets any country—especially a developed one with a manageably small population—off the hook. And if you're among the world's tiny group of fortunates who can choose to live where you want, do yourself a favor and take a hard, cold look at whether you'll truly be better off in NZ, numbers-wise. It doesn't matter if other people on some forum say they're having a grand old time. They're not you, and they won't pay for your move out if this doesn't work out. Don't explain away problems that are brought up on these threads, just because you want them to not exist. I did that, and found out too late that the people who were willing to voice the unpopular views were the ones who were the most trustworthy. The houses were freezing. The cost of living was high, with costs we didn't even anticipate. The technology infrastructure was appalling, the hoons were a problem, and as for the racial abuse, I didn't even know about it because no one on these expat forums were willing to talk about it.

It's your life. Don't groupthink it.

JasonSouthYorks

I cannot believe that so many of you who have posted on this thread and one or two others on the forum are still in NZ. You are so negative (you will say realistic no doubt) about the country. If it is as bad as you say and you dislike it so much, why don't you move somewhere else.

I'm starting to form the impression that there are 3 catagories of people on here.

1. Those who will help people make an informed decision and answer questions to the best of their ability, which is what I thought the site was aimed at. The answers may be positive or negative, as long as they are honest and give a balanced view I'm ok with that.

2. Those who appear to hate everything Kiwi and are using the forum to moan and rant, hence making them feel better about, either themselves or the wrong decision that they made when they moved to country that they weren't suited to.

3. There are one or two that appear somewhat arrogant about the fact that they are in NZ and we are not. It seems that some people who are already over there will go to great lengths to put others off moving over.

Those of you in catagory 1, thank you. Your advice and experiences are invaluable.

Browner_

Hey, Im probably a type 2 in some ways, but it doesnt make me feel better.

I just want to point out that NZ really isnt much like its touristy, green image in the UK. The average kiwi is the most un-green person, and they think being green means supporting whales and smoking pot. One of the current All Blacks was convicted a couple of years ago for shooting a protected fur seal with a semi automatic pistol. Just about sums up NZ greenness for me.

As for moving somewhere else, that not always easy once your here. Kiwi wives and kids, jobs, and money come into the equation for many of us Im sure. If I could go easily somewhere else, I would.

People need to know other peoples views to help avoid them making the same mistake.

JoB

Here, here what a great post.

I am white british, I was appalled at the level of racism in NZ.
A friend of ours emigrated before us and he said quote ' I was stuff in traffic on the M25 and said to my mate look around you not one white face'. This was one of his reasons to emigrate. He obviously hadn't recond (sp) that NZ was far nearer to Asia than the UK. He fits in very well now in NZ and openly calls maoris, asians etc. amongst his new xenophobic kiwi friends.

Quoting experiences is NOT being negative it is being HONEST.

Oh and if you haven't moved there yet it's wise to save opinions of the country 'till you get there. Even after visiting 3 times before moving my opinions changed dramatically of the place after living there.

Jo

Browner_

Me too. Id visited more times than 3 and even been here for a full summer. But living and working in one place gives you a completely different perspective.

spoonguy

Id say category 4 of people who liven in certain areas of the UK and had a rough time then going on to put down the whole of the UK as a cess pool. They moved to a nice area of NZ and again judge the entire country on that experience. This then tends to drive others closer to category 2 as they try and find parallels in NZ for what people complain about in the UK. There seem to be very few people in category 1 which is a shame.

Id say NZ isn't better just different, depends what you're after really.

NZBee

I agree also.
I couldnt believe how different the place is once I moved here (see early posts by me and you will see how slowly my opinion has changed).

I do think people use this is a place to vent their frustrations, but to be honest, I think this is a better medium to do it on, rather than to other loved ones or to other Kiwis (and living up to our name as whinging Poms!), and adding further stress.

A minority of us are not so fortunate, but even the 'whingeing' ones of us still love NZ and are glad we made the decision to come here. Every place has their problems, yes, but when you move to a new environment their problems can be daunting and appear a lot larger than they would in an environment you are familiar with.

I feel I can speak from experience on this. I have been burgled twice in 4 months of moving here. I had never been burgled in the UK, despite living in some less desirable areas at times. It was gang related and thus terrifying. If I had been in the UK, I dont think (although I dont know) I would have lost as much sleep over this.

I think it is important to be realistic, and to understand the social and economic issues NZ has, as well as the good stuff of course. Wouldnt you rather know, that arrive here with no knowledge, and then wonder why no one had told you??

Batty

In response to Wintersmith. I'm Irish. You may not know this but that alone makes me a target for a particular kind of 'humour' that isn't always very funny when you're on the receiving end of it. I've had that only once here and haha it was from my husband's brother in law

I'm a very friendly person and I use the bus to get to work. Those two things, in any country I've lived in (4) have meant that it's easy to get to talk to and know people - even on the Tube in London I got to know a couple of people who caught the same train as me every day.

The only exception to that rule has been from Asian people here. No matter how much I smile at them they don't smile back. I have given up now. It's very easy to say that it's all the fault of other people but no matter what, it takes two to tango and all anyone wants to see is someone making an effort.

And, it's fairly logical to call people vigilantes when they're talking about bringing in Triads - the leader of this group has so incensed the majority of people who took part in that march that they're talking of feeling cheated by him and members of the committee have resigned.

Again.... two sides to every story.

I've no idea what it's really like in Christchurch as I've never been there and I abhor the idea of someone being attacked either physically or verbally for the colour of their skin. I do know that on a day to day basis here in Auckland I feel that the least friendly people are those of Asian appearance - you don't have to speak the language to smile back at someone when they smile at you. It makes me feel just as bad to be on the receiving end of a cold stare when I've tried to be friendly as it would they if I stuck two fingers up at them.

I can understand that some people feel the best form of defence is attack but it then becomes a viscious circle and all you end up with is people like me who could have been friends but who feel it's not worth bothering anymore.

wintersmith

(Quick note: The "vigilante" description was being used in response to the self-defense training, before the idiotic triad comment was made public.)

Two sides, or just shifting the blame? I'm not surprised by your post, since I've had this argument made many times, and not in a pretty nice, low-key way you've chosen. The argument is that it's basically the "Asians'" fault, for not winning locals over.

Aside from the problem of lumping together some very unlumpable demographics—Chinese and Korean, Japanese and Indian, students and skilled professionals, long-landed Kiwis and new arrivals—the argument is doomed to devolve. Why? Because I can just push right back, pointing out that many Asian immigrants have developed deep distrust of white people from the verbal abuse, flying projectiles and even physical violence (see links below). Or that many Asian students and migrants come from metropolises of scales unknown to NZ or Ireland, where people give each other space by averting eyes. Or that new arrivals expending their energy to build a life shouldn't also be burdened with winning over a tough crowd. I could even turn the spotlight on you, asking how often you've tried to crack the wall, or whether you've made friendly overtures in more suitable surroundings like kids' schools or neighborhood shops.

As for how tough that crowd is, I can cite statistics showing Asian migrants leaving at a much higher rate, or the massive unemployment figure among skilled Muslim migrants. I can point you towards survey results that show 30 to 50% of Asian respondents noting experience of harassment. I can tell you about a white American woman who bought my pots and pans on TradeMe, who told me that a Korean shopkeeper in Avondale cried when she was complimented on her English, because no other customers had ever said that to her—just the opposite.

I can narrate my own experience in Christchurch, where a big ol' smile and an American accent did me no good, or at least not enough for decent treatment.

I can also challenge you and say, who cares whose turn it is to smile? Whoever has friendliness and comfort to spare that day can do it, and not lose a thing whether the gesture is returned or not.

But none of that serves any purpose. If you don't feel your Asian neighbors are being victimized, I'm not going to persuade you. If you think the ball's not in your court, I'm not going to change your mind. Every person has a standing invite to be a part of the change for the better, but no one can make you play.


FYI links:
<<Admin Edit - Links removed>>

TeamEmbo

[QUOTE=wintersmith;6552188...Two sides, or just shifting the blame? I'm not surprised by your post, since I've had this argument made many times, and not in a pretty nice, low-key way you've chosen. The argument is that it's basically the "Asians'" fault, for not winning locals over....[/QUOTE]

I don't get why "fault" has to be applied or why the race card has to keep being played. Basically, at the end of the day we are all human beings and if somebody passing along during the course of my day smiles or says hello, they get a smile and a hello back - regardless of colour, age, gender, able bodied or disabled, whatever. I dislike the way the race card gets played all the time and I often think that ironically isn't that just discriminating against all white people? To say that all white people are the same and so Asian distrust all of us - do they know all of us? Why a 'them' and 'us' anyway?

Surely if someone smiles in an open friendly way, you'd smile back, ask how you doing? At that point you don't know and can't judge that person. Surely in order to break this ludicrous way of thinking each person should be taking the other on their merits.

If a white person came towards me looking angry or intimidating I'd react in exactly the same way to them as I would an Asian person or Chinese person coming at me in the same manner. Equally, if a white person smiles at me in an open and friendly manner then I'd smile back - if an Asian person smiled at me then I'd smile back at them too.

From what you're saying it's ok for Asians to act the way they do as they're justified to think all whites are bad. But white people can't say that about Asians, that would make us racist and white people must put in double the effort and make allowances for how Asians feel - why? because of our skin colour? How about getting to know individuals?

Isn't it about time we all learned to treat each other with respect and to stop making swathing statements purely based on skin colour?

If one person turning off one lightbulb can make a difference to global warming then isn't it about time we started thinking the same about people - judge each other on whether they're a nice person once we know them rather than just saying 'they're white they're not to be trusted' or 'they're black they're not to be trusted'.

I'm sorry I simply don't get it. To me it just seem a perception getting in the way of simply smiling and meeting people and getting to know them and getting on with life.

Kiwiprincess

I am just glad that I am not the only person grinning at people like a loon on the train/bus. Makes me feel better.

ewanainsworth

This is surely a good time for the use of one of Crosby, Stills, Nash and Youngs lyrics from the song Wooden Ships

" If you smile at me, I will understand,
That is something everybody everywhere, does in the same language."

BEVS

For clarity:- Neither BE admin or the mods have edited or moderated Wintersmith's post in any way. It stands exactly as she has written and edited it herself.

(edited here 11 July 13.30pm..... actually , apologies to one , all & the poster. The links were removed by BE Admin after all. A blip with the system showed them as being edited by the poster. Hence the above )

Wintersmith. You are perfectly entitled to post a link to an article, stats. etc which you may feel underpins your argument. Please be aware of Rule 7 .


BE Rule 7
Also, as has been stated several times now. You are perfectly entitled to have a direct , live link to your website in your signature.

Rule 9
The BE rules exist for everyone.
As has been previously stated.There is a link to the site rules at the bottom of every forum page, if you scroll down you will see it.
There is also a link to the site rules. It's listed at the top of the main FAQ page.
A link to the Site Rules is also included in every "welcome" email that is sent upon registration.

edited here....

You may also like to add a link to your blog in your signature too. That is also OK. As I'm doing the BE Rules thing. Signatures are governed by Rule 18.

BEVS

With regard to my above post about being able to use links to illustrate a point of view.

i.e.

Here is a link to a SCOOP article which reports a Human Rights Commission Release Monday, 18 February 2008, called 'Racial discrimination poll lowest in seven years'

This is to illustrate the use of links within the scope of the BE rules & is not my personal comment on this subject matter.

spoonguy

Isn't the largest racial group in NZ those of European descent?