Assanah

What is wrong with people whinging if their life turn sour? It is not only healthy to vent but such stories can right a wrong system. It is important to whinge about cases like that so that we can see if the systems goes wrong. Society is complex if you change the laws you might get results that were not anticipated (yes, Tommy Luck these things happen to the best of us all the time). Then you need to reconsider and if it is important enough you need to change the laws. It is important that people complain.

TommyLuck

It's no secret that Australia has stringent immigration laws and therefore policies on benefits for those who are deemed not to be Australian citizens by those laws.

Equally, this couple must have known that their son didn't have the legal documentation to prove his citizenship.

So to go to the press when they tried their hand and failed on an assumption is pathetic.

Obviously Australia is a young country rising in wealth, it wants to protect its interests for Australians. Australians are born all over the world (like Kiwis) to a higher proportion than most of the rest of the developed world - Australia wants to protect the interest of Australians for the long term and, in my opinion it is quite right stringent with this. Otherwise you risk and Tom, Dick to Harry flooding you country trying to get in.

A young, wealthy country like Australia puts its self at high risk if they start to open the doors.

The UK deals with this, just, but only because it is part of the wider EU and even so on it's own in nearly 3 times larger in terms of population than Australia is.

Unfortunately for this family, they fall short and not in between the cracks.

New Zealand is not dissimilar with these percieved quirks in immigration law;

For instance my daughter although a Kiwi Passport holder from birth through her Mum can not as this stage pass on her citizenship to her children, as she was born in the UK.

We need to 'upgrade' her citizenship status now she is living in NZ to allow this to happen.

Supposing the law doesn't change, I fear that in 5, 10, 15, 20 or years more time there will be people crying foul of this immigration law because more and more 'Kiwis' are being born outside of New Zealand - when these children have their own children and are surprised that they can't pass on their citizenship, because they assumed that ...

bourbon-biscuit

TommyLuck, the more you explain and expand on your position, the more removed from a compassionate, kind person you sound. You seem to value being right over being kind, justice over compassion, etc, but what you are failing to see is that you won't be able to persuade others of the 'logic' and 'rightness' of your position just by further explanation; folk don't disagree with you because they haven't understood you. For many people, when asked to reflect on this sort of situation they value being kind over being right, and compassion over justice - and that's not always because they've gone with an emotional response or been led by the heart; compassion often requires a good bit of rationalising and cognition, particularly if your reflex is a tendency to 'judge' (that's me sometimes).

What do you value more in others and in yourself, TommyLuck - being kind, or being right?

barnsleymat

I agree with everything you've said Tommy.

TommyLuck

When it comes to the topic of law which is what this boils down to, compassion or kindness can not come in to it.

How often have you come across a jury that are asked to show compassion and kindess to an assailant by a judge?

How often, on appeal does a case get decided on the basis of compassion and kindess?

It doesn't happen and nor should it.

I feel for the kid like I do any other person with disability, but he's still getting the treatment he requires - the underlying problem is that the family are having to pay for portions of this treatment.

Everyone wants something for nothing these days and then blame the government when they don't get what they want.

As a group of civilians, whether it be in the NZ, Aus, the UK or wherever we can not have it both ways. We can not keep taking from society and then blame the people voted in to run our country and the society associated with it when thing don't go our own way.

Certainly when the reasons, whys and wherefores have already been stated in law.

Ignorance and/or assumption are no defence. Ever.

Bellasmum

Yes from what I have read both you and Tommy would make great Aussie's

TommyLuck

Sacrilege!!!

Bellasmum

southerner

If the law is wrong and is having (probably) unintended consequences, why not go to the papers. Much better the papers focus on real issues rather than crap celebrity rubbish and suchlike that they seem to currently focus on so much.

Seems a screwed up bit of logic that a person born, bred and living in any country can marry a foreign national, have their child in the same country, and then not be able to get citizenship for that child. Defies natural justice.

Hebe

Surely if the husband is australian by decent and was living in Australia at the time of the child's birth then that child/children would be Australian by birth and kiwi by decent.

I wonder if it is given that the father is Australian by decent they will retrospectively give the children citizenship as he has always been an Australian!

MOSO

In the Father's response to the criticism he states that he could have claimed citizenship by descent but didn't. Therefore he was a Kiwi at the time of the child's birth as was his wife. As others have stated even if the Father had claimed citizenship by descent (through HIS mother being Australian) he cannot pass on that onto his child.

My children are in the same situation as they are NZ citizens by descent but this cannot be passed on to any children they have unless they gain full citizenship which we will apply for after we have been here 5 years.

I agree that immigration rules can seem unfair. My mother-in-law came over here as a child in the 1950s, lived here, worked and paid taxes, got married, had a child but never took out full citizenship for herself. Circumstances meant that she had to return to the UK. She therefore lost all rights to return and live here again.

Although going to the press won't help this family unfortunately, at least it is helpful to lots of us who need to think about immigration and citizenship rules and the implications for ourselves and our children. You never know what the future will bring so it is definitely prudent to check citizenship rules wherever you live, however it can also be easily overlooked and assumptions made.

RedDragon2008

Being born an Australian would define being a victim

I think ronin had some good points:

- NZ overstayer policy
- NZ migrants to Oz are either highly skilled therefore applicable for PR or
not suitable and therefore every respect to be treated as temporary with social benefit restrictions.
- NZ sport

Hebe

We have been told differently than that. My understanding by our migration lawyers in respect of my step son is: Australian by birth can pass on by decent if child born in any country -he is also British and New Zealand by decent regardless of whether he holds a passport but unless his children are born in these countries then he cannot pass this on - so a child born in Australia by an Australian citizen by decent would get citizenship. If you can point me to the bit about children born to parents who are Australian by decent and cannot pass on their citizenship to children born there I would be intrigued as I have friends here who are by decent and their children have Aussie passports! Wife is British

MOSO

As people's circumstances are all different and there have been changes to rules at various times and it depends when/where you were born and the nationality of your parents, here is a link to NZ Internal Affairs that explains the rules for New Zealand.

http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.ns...t?OpenDocument

Doing a quick Google search, this appears to be the Australian Version. I haven't gone through and read it thoroughly and you may well be right Hebe. Best we all check for ourselves taking into account our own circumstances.

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/applyi...born_overseas/

Hebe

It would appear that citizenship by descent is not conferred at birth and you have to apply. If over 18 you must be of good character'