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On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Old Nov 14th 2013, 4:22 am
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Angry On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

OMG.

What ?

A young Wellington woman raped by a bouncer in an alleyway could have "closed her legs" if she didn't want sex, the man's lawyer told a jury.

Article HERE

...and before the 'Defence of NZ at all cost' come charging in, it is not about NZ.
I am just shocked & disgusted that a lawyer in this day and age thinks it's OK to say such a thing. It smacks of 1970 - "she looked at me and so asked for it". That is the point. Not that it couldn't be so anywhere else in the world.
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 4:42 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

anyway this lawyer can be struck off. seriously with a holes like that how does anyone stand a chance. I understand he is defending but seriously. lets hope he doesn't have children as that gene pool is seriously lacking
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 5:54 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

I have no words at all.
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 6:08 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

That is disgusting. What with the Roast Busters scandal coming to light I think it is giving NZ a chance to shake up their views in regards to rape and and how women are treated if they have been attacked. Seems like there is a bit of victim blaming going on at present, which is an attitude that needs to be changed.

I think Willie and JT did not help matters when they said some pretty disgusting things live on air. I was pleased to hear that lots of companies pulled their advertising whilst the two presenters were on air. Even the building was tagged after what they said! I am pleased to see they have now stepped down from the radio show at least until the new year. Actions = consequences in that instance.
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 6:11 pm
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

The film " The Accused " by Jodie Foster came into my head last night. I thought those days were over when a women was to blame for a rape because of the way she dressed or the lack of fighting back. It is shameful.
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 7:31 pm
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

It's a difficult discussion this - it clearly and emotive conversation, partiuclarly for women for blindingly obvious reasons.

I did a Criminology degree and remember a debate we had on rape and sexual assault, so none of the following is my personal view - I don't know what my personal view is. It really is a case by case basis.

It's very easy to blame the men for these instances, because by and large they are physically stronger.

But, there are several cases whereby the person allegedly assaulted or raped has been proven in law to have cried wolf.

There is also the element of 'it taking two to tango'.

There are endless elements to this from a legal, or a Criminologists stand point. It's a view that must be considered as both sexual assult and rape are notoriously difficult to prosecute on - the question of 'when does 'no', mean 'no', is hugely subjective in law.

As a father to a young girl, sadly, I do think about what I would do if she came home one day and told me she'd been assulted or raped. I guess it's part of life. I might add I don't dwell on it, I'm a positive, happy parent. Mostly.

My heart would lead me in to a rage, my head however would want to know ALL of the facts before I do anything silly, or out of character - no matter how the facts would hurt me emotionally, I'd rather know all the details about what an earth went on before I react.

Besmirching someones name without knowing the facts would be something I'd struggle to live with, if it proved that my daughter was in fact not telling the truth.

As a man, I would be a tough pill to swallow if I was hauled up in front of the court, or even arrested because of a situation I knew was not extraordinary or committed with any intent or malice to cause physical or mental harm or any type.


On this lawyer, it's a poor choice of wording - we all make mistake at work, dont we - don't hang him out to dry for it. It should always be noted, no matter how much you might dislike lawyers, that they may have mothers, sisters, daughters, wives, nieces, grandmothers - this is unlikely to be their personal view, he is doing his job as a defence lawyer, poorly in this case, in my opinion - but he is not employed to think about the emotions of the prosecution, or for that matter the thoughts of a nation.
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Old Nov 14th 2013, 8:23 pm
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Sorry Tommyluck but I cannot agree with you on this one. If my daughter came home and said she had been raped I would believe her instantly. I would want to hunt him down and rip off his ........... s.

I am a counsellor and have had to help women pick up the pieces after they have been raped. You would not believe what a wrong 'comment' or a 'phrase' can do to these women. Most of whom punish themselves anyway for it happening to them. It stays with these women for the rest of their lives in one way or another.

When you are dealing with peoples lives and making comments like that you cannot put it down to a mistake at work. If I made such 'mistakes' I would be struck off the counselling register.

I do sympathise with cases where it has been proved that the women had made up the story. It must be a terrible situation for a man to have to go through. But no means no in any situation. A man has that right and so does a woman. If a woman says no to sex, whatever the situation, she means no and the man has no right to force her to have sex.

Sorry if I sound like I am ranting. It is something I feel passionate about due to my nature of work.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 1:48 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

But, there are several cases whereby the person allegedly assaulted or raped has been proven in law to have cried wolf.


Tommy I am really interested in this comment. I have a Law degree and IMHO it is impossible to prove consent was not given/was given.

False allegations are rare and fall into the category of insufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution.

Mind you I can well understand the statements in your post if Defence Counsel were involved in your discussion. They are paid good money to believe the accused version of the facts.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 2:52 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Originally Posted by Bellasmum View Post
But, there are several cases whereby the person allegedly assaulted or raped has been proven in law to have cried wolf.


Tommy I am really interested in this comment. I have a Law degree and IMHO it is impossible to prove consent was not given/was given.

False allegations are rare and fall into the category of insufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution.

Mind you I can well understand the statements in your post if Defence Counsel were involved in your discussion. They are paid good money to believe the accused version of the facts.
Yeah my wording wasn't great there

There have been instances whereby people (not necessarily women) have accused another person (again, not necessarily a woman) of some form of sexual assault or rape.

When pressed, by the police, or by legal professionals the accusser has been forced to admit they weren't telling the truth.

It also happened at a former work place of mine (I wasn't involved). The accuser freaked out after sleeping with the other person and cried foul - it was rather messy and ended up with A LOT of grovelling to keep their job, but of course that person wasn't particularly respected after that incident.

Last edited by TommyLuck; Nov 15th 2013 at 3:10 am.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 3:08 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Originally Posted by pippalonghorn View Post
Sorry Tommyluck but I cannot agree with you on this one. If my daughter came home and said she had been raped I would believe her instantly. I would want to hunt him down and rip off his ........... s.

I am a counsellor and have had to help women pick up the pieces after they have been raped. You would not believe what a wrong 'comment' or a 'phrase' can do to these women. Most of whom punish themselves anyway for it happening to them. It stays with these women for the rest of their lives in one way or another.

When you are dealing with peoples lives and making comments like that you cannot put it down to a mistake at work. If I made such 'mistakes' I would be struck off the counselling register.

I do sympathise with cases where it has been proved that the women had made up the story. It must be a terrible situation for a man to have to go through. But no means no in any situation. A man has that right and so does a woman. If a woman says no to sex, whatever the situation, she means no and the man has no right to force her to have sex.

Sorry if I sound like I am ranting. It is something I feel passionate about due to my nature of work.

It's a difficult one isn't it?

But when you've been on the other end of being assualted having been an innocent person, you perhaps take a different view - you clarify the facts.

I got beaten black and blue once in Australia by a fella who accused me of taking a photograph up his girlfriends skirt. The police arrived, checked my camera and my phone nothing was on either - I had no time to delete the alleged images, I was being pulverised after a suprise attack and CCTV proved I wasn't the man he was looking for.

I was ok - found it tough to chew for a while though.

This incident has since made me much more wary of simply reacting to something on face value. Collect the facts as best you can, and then deal with accordingly.

Having said that, I understand the trust one would want to put into their child - but taking the law into your own hands isn't something I can condone, it's a dangerous game even if the accusation is proven.

As for the words the lawyer used, I'd like to dig out the transcript. We often take the newspaper report at face value, when the context is not truly represented.


Interesting too the focus on women as the abused and the males as abusers, as per the story in the original post. It should be noted that the reverse also happens, as well as males assaulting males, and females assaulting other females.


It's a tough subject to simply debate. I guess most of us don't truly know what we'll do until it happens, if it happens. Which I sincerely wish it doesn't.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 4:19 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Originally Posted by Bellasmum View Post
False allegations are rare and fall into the category of insufficient evidence to proceed with a prosecution.
Are you sure? A few years ago they had a policy of prosecuting regardless to avoid criticism so the rate of convictions was very low and the rate of acquittals very high. Something like 13% of cases brought to police ended in conviction.

On a more positive note though there is a nice bit on the law foundation website:
"...victims of “real rape” – that is, the paradigmatic crime committed by a stranger in a dark alley. This type of sexual offending is relatively uncommon, although such offending is most likely to be resolved satisfactorily from the victim’s perspective."

In my view, in light of the low prosecution and high acquittal rate, the criminal process if often neither fair nor equitable for the accused currently. I would suggest that the police liaise with CPS and ask, long before they start taking statements, if they've actually got a chance of making a conviction (that is to say pre-existing evidence amounts to something substantial). If not it should be dropped discreetly and everyone gets gagged outside of pursuing further legal action (i.e. no slander if the case isn't convicted).

Last edited by Charismatic; Nov 15th 2013 at 4:43 am.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 5:32 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to anyone I or you know. I would not take the law into my own hands but I would feel like doing so. I think it is important to let our children and families know that they are believed so that these things do not go unreported. A lot of my work is with clients who are wanting to end their lives. They have not told their family members what has happened to them for the fear of not being believed.

The treatment of both parties involved must be changed. I am aware that men are also the victims of abuse and their treatment needs to be changed also.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 11:05 pm
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Originally Posted by pippalonghorn View Post
The treatment of both parties involved must be changed. I am aware that men are also the victims of abuse and their treatment needs to be changed also.
That's my point about gagging if not convicted, that way the allegation can't be used as slander if a court does not find the accused guilty.

I mean at the moment it's rare police will, even in cases where evidence makes it blindingly apparent that the accused isn't guilty, charge someone with wasting police time.

Short of convincing people that signing a declaration of consent is part of foreplay I can't see the situation getting better for the accused in most rape cases.
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Old Nov 15th 2013, 11:21 pm
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Smile Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Also in the original post given the lack of context the lawyer may have been justified in his comments. His job is to represent his client and if that involves telling some uncomfortable truths or hurting a persons feelings it's part of his job.

You can't muzzle justice and still expect it to be the guard dog of an open, liberal and free society.
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Old Nov 16th 2013, 1:28 am
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Default Re: On the back of disgusting Roast Busters - Rape victim could have closed legs.

Originally Posted by Charismatic View Post
Are you sure? A few years ago they had a policy of prosecuting regardless to avoid criticism so the rate of convictions was very low and the rate of acquittals very high. Something like 13% of cases brought to police ended in conviction.

On a more positive note though there is a nice bit on the law foundation website:
"...victims of “real rape” – that is, the paradigmatic crime committed by a stranger in a dark alley. This type of sexual offending is relatively uncommon, although such offending is most likely to be resolved satisfactorily from the victim’s perspective."

In my view, in light of the low prosecution and high acquittal rate, the criminal process if often neither fair nor equitable for the accused currently. I would suggest that the police liaise with CPS and ask, long before they start taking statements, if they've actually got a chance of making a conviction (that is to say pre-existing evidence amounts to something substantial). If not it should be dropped discreetly and everyone gets gagged outside of pursuing further legal action (i.e. no slander if the case isn't convicted).
Proceed with a prosecution policy was a Domestic Violence policy when spouses were not compellable (spousal privilege). It was designed to ensure investigating officers were thorough with their work as opposed to depending on the evidence of the victim only. Unfortunately the onus and pressure on victims to recant increased considerably and the 2006 Evidence Act means spouses are now compellable.

Sexual abuse matters are not proceeded with unless there is sufficient evidence to proceed (they all get assessed by Crown Solicitors).

Beyond reasonable doubt and consent are the big issues in the lack of convictions in SA matters.
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