Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Hi I am after some advice as to where we would stand legally.

I phoned a plumbing firm a few weeks ago after asking around friends who they had used etc and one name kept coming up as good so I called said firm.

Explained what it was that I nedded doing. Installing a uv filter and 2 filters by our water pump which is in the back of the garage and install another filter under the kitchen sink. Explained make of filtration system to which their reply was 'yeah I know which ones you mean. Will be about $300 - $600.'

I had a quick discussion with hubby while he was on the phone on hold and agreed to his quote asking when was he available to fit.

Could fit first thing in the morning, or a date late the following week.

I agreed to the following morning.
Phone rang at 8am he was running late will be with us about 9.30.
On arriving he looked at what is was that we needed fitting took it all out of the box, he could also see the water pump etc He just took a quick look at filtre that we wanted fitting under kitchen sink. (He knew pluming of house as he was the one who plumbed it as a new build 12 months previously.

He then explained he wont be completing the work but an employee will be along shortly.... Turned up job completed etc etc no issues nice work. Dragged his feet a littel but nowt major.


I got the bill on Saturday morning for nearly $1,100. Nearly double the top end of estimate.

He has written a little note on the bottom stating he knows he gave a quote on the phone and this is a lot more than quoted. It is what it took to complete the job and the job was alot bigger than what I had said.

Where do we stand legally should he have not said when he saw the job first thing in the morning that I had grossly under stated the job? How I can do that I'm not sure. I know that I am not the only person in NZ to have one of these water filters fittedso surely he has fitted a few prior to me to know exactly what is involved with fillting a full filtration system.

Should they have not told me at some point through the job that it was costing more than estimated?


Any advice greatly appreciated.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I don't know how you stand legally but have you got a breakdown of that figure..if the increased amount is all mainly parts and you can verify those costs are reasonable, then you may decide it's an honest mistake.
If it's all labour, then I think he's just trying to take a 'cashed up Pom' for a ride.

I know there is supposed to be a difference between a quote and an estimate but as it was verbal who knows which yours was, an estimate I think is the one which they are allowed to exceed but you could have expected sth to be said when he sized up the job for real.

Lesson for future to get a broken down quote in writing I suppose.

http://www.consumeraffairs.govt.nz/c...fo/quotes.html Some good suggestions in there such as getting someone else to price the job up and compromising in the middle.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

No written quote = :(.

However with his admission of guilt (did he give his quote figure on his note as well?) you may have some comeback. First ring him and offer to pay him the $600 but say you're a little unhappy to pay more and that you may seek legal recourse if you can't come to some arrangement. Hopefully he will be reasonable and drop it by at least $300.

Or just do what I did when the toilet I bought from <Something that rhymes with humming> world sent me my bill after cocking up the order which would have cost me hundreds to put right. I wrote them a firmly worded letter and sent them a copy of the plummers bill for his extra time with a check for the outstanding amount...less the bill ;). They sent me a receipt which said the outstanding amount was $0. Good stuff :thumbsup:.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

The bill should be within 20% of the estimate. Checked on the consumer website and this is what it said:

Disputing an estimate
[Date]

Letter disputing an estimate

Dear ...

[Address and estimate number if there is one]

On [date] you [describe work] for me.

You will remember that I asked how much the work would cost and you gave me an estimate of [amount].

I was shocked when yesterday I was told the charge would be [amount]. This was almost [half as much again or whatever] as the estimate you gave me.

I pointed out the large difference but you said I had to pay or else you would hold my [item if it is the repair of a product].

Under duress I paid, but I have now taken advice from [name] and am told that in law a final price should be close to the estimate - certainly no more than 20 percent above.

I ask that you refund [amount] within seven days. As you will see, I have allowed what I consider to be a reasonable margin for unexpected costs you may have failed to include in your estimate.

I look forward to receiving your payment.

Yours sincerely
Point of Law

Estimates are approximate prices. Nevertheless they must be close to the mark. Tradespeople and professionals are experts in their field of work and they should give figures that are close to the true cost of jobs. In our opinion you can challenge an account that is more than, say, 20 percent above an estimate. Always ask to be contacted if unforeseen problems crop up during a job.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

First of all: welcome to New Zealand! This kind of situation is what has helped to 'break' us, we are just far too tired after 6 years here of having to keep fighting the constant being ripped off, the more-than-estimated or quoted fees, the appalling workmanship from tradespeople that costs us even more to rectify ,,,, over and over and over again. You can fight these people at disputes tribunal, but even if your case is clear cut you still too often walk away having to pay half of the disputed amount, as judgement almost always goes along the lines of 'well, the 'fairest' (yea right) thing to do is to split the amount in dispute between the disputing parties'.

What you can do is to pay the guy the maximum that you think you should pay (the estimate was for $300-$600. They've put you on the spot now, haven't they, with such a whopper of an amount OVER the estimate, so that you will now feel thankful to end up paying 'just' the maximum estimated amount of $600! ). So say you decide that $600 is what you're willing to pay (i.e. the 'fair price'). So pay that amount, but accompany the payment with a letter stating that you dispute (use that exact word) any further amount they are charging, and explain why. For instance:

a) that they had quoted you a price range of no more than $300 to $600, and
b) that they did not inform you at any time before or during the job that the price would not only be more, but would be substantially more, than what they had originally quoted in their estimate ($1100 is more than 3 1/2 times the low end of their estimate to you!). They denied you any opportunity to decline having the job done at an unexpectedly high price, and/or a price that you may not even have the money, or be able to afford, to pay!
and
c) that even their bill to you has a note that clearly states that the actual price they are billing you for is much more than what they quoted to you (NB: because of this note, by the way, you probably don't have to worry about lack of 'proof' about the original verbal estimate.)

You might also want to point out and emphasize in the letter that the $600 you are paying is already the very maximum amount in the price range that they quoted to you, and that based on their quote you could even have expected to pay possibly much less than this!

So here's how it works in NZ:

When a customer does not pay the full price billed, a company has three choices:
1) to pay a collection agency to pursue payment from the customer, or
2) to submit a complaint to the disputes tribunal, forcing customer to a tribunal hearing where an enforceable judgement will be made, or
3) To just 'leave it', as pursuing it will risk further money 'lost'

Now, if you write a letter ASAP to the company 'disputing' (again, you must use the exact word 'dispute') the amount charged, they can't go to a collection agency, as if a bill is disputed by the customer, it can only be sorted at disputes tribunal (and only then if the company still wishes to pursue the matter).

Once you've paid the most you're willing to pay, and written to the company explaining that you dispute any further charges, the onus is now on the company (and not YOU) to take matters further. If they go to a collection agency (highly unlikely as they have to pay the agency no matter what the outcome), the collection agency will then contact you and you will immediately tell them that "the charges are in dispute", at which point the collection agency cannot legally take matters further. If the company chooses to go to disputes tribunal (which also costs them some money in fees), their only other option, you will get notice from the tribunal to attend a hearing where you will give your (hopefully well-prepared) case against the company - and as you have a very good case, the worst you should lose is either an extra $120 (20% of the top end of the estimate quoted), or possibly $250 (half of the disputed amount).

One other thing you should do: contact as many plumbing firms as you can ASAP and ask them for an estimate of cost for the job that you've just had done (don't tell them your situation, or that the job has already been done. If they know that, they might give you a different 'story' altogether). Be sure to note down the name of each firm you speak to and their estimated price, for future reference, as this could help back up your case. Oh, and while you're at it.... ask each firm you call how they deal with situations where the actual cost turns out to be higher than their estimate!! Ask them if it's (their) common practise to go ahead and do a job and then only let you know the higher actual cost after the job is done!!! ANd then please report back here as to what they reply!!

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

We paid a roofer half of his bill, and told him he could have the other half once it rained and we could see the roof no longer leaked.

He never got the rest of his money, and was quite happy with that once he popped back to re-rectify the leak.

Seen him in the pub since, and he's never mentioned it.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Hi Newfies

As a tradesman in NZ I see this all the time. I'm quoting for stuff, only to be undercut with prices that I can see can't do the job, and guess what I don't get the job(s). Then I hear that the job cost has jumped more to what it should be, (and closer to my price).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were 'quoted' this price to get the work. Would you have used him if he told you the proper price, or would you have said, "oh I'll get some other prices as well". Human nature - we all want a bargin.

Black sheep's advice is spot on if you are the consumer. (on the other foot by the way as the tradesperson I ALWAYS go after all debts).

Sadly for you a verbal quote is just as good as the famous promise "Cheque's in the post";

Was this plumber a member of the master plumbers association. If so report him.

Or try Fair go (TV) they love this sort of thing.

It's a nasty lesson but learn from it

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Excellent advice, Black Sheep:thumbsup:

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

HI Thanks for all advice.

I have called a few plumbers today one of wich was willing to give me a rough estimate over the phone and at an extreeme price top end would be $500-600 also got some others calling me back!

Hubby has also made an appointment with some free legal advice centre for tomorrow but we have composed a letter in preparation to send to the plumbing firm as per black sheeps advice first scentence being we are writting to dispute the final cost of the bill ref no..........

All being well he will fax this tomorrow and I guess we will await response. He may tweak it following this legal centre advice

Will keep you all poosted.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

In the event you manage to win the day, I would also suggest that you complain to the PGDB.. They are s'posed to be the regulatory board and operate a disciplinary procedure.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Newfies, may I suggest on your behalf that from this point on, anyone who might have advice for you please send it to you via private message (PM). Probably best not to discuss this any further on an open forum. Whether you like it or not, this is now a 'game' and you're a player and you need to hold your cards real close to your chest now...

I will try to PM you myself, but have no time right now- but meanwhile, you can get free legal advice tomorrow on the phone, just give the gist of the situation and see what suggestions the legal help people might come up with about what options you have and what you might have to be careful about in regards to the 'invitation' to their offices afforded to you by the plumbing co (but BTW, don't always accept ALL legal advice that you're given here. Sorry no time to explain, just suggesting you not alway accept as the final word advice from even so-called 'legal experts', especially when the advice is that 'there's nothing you can do'!!)

P.S. I'm sending you a P.M in a minute, so check your messages...

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

We had problems in 2004 in UK with new bathroom. Original price £4200 (we provided suite/mirrors/fitments/flooring. He took old suite out (roll top bath and loads of lead piping). Quoted max 4 weeks. lasted 11 weeks and created a flood in downstairs after new carpets laid! Finally left property 3 days before new tenantswere arriving and 3 weeks after I had come out of hospital.
We received an final invoice for £5980 having already paid £2100 up front.
I sent a letter disputing this invoice and asking for a detailed break down in costs. He added things to the materials section which we had provided. He made rediculous labour charges which were double the going rate and he double billed numerous items. All this we were able to prove.
Did that stop him harharassing- No way.
He then set a firm of debt collectors on to us.
We insisted it was a disputed debt. Made no odds.
Phone calls in the night- threatening letters. What would happen if 'self employed collectors' had to be sent round???:unsure:
I was a hairs breadth from a total breakdown and my usual strong OH was suffering the same.
We instructed a solicitor, who advised us that this 'builder' a member of FMB ( which means sod all) hadn't got a leg to stand on.
He contacted the debt collection agency- told them to stop the harassment and start court proceedings, if they wanted the dispute settled. He explained he had seen all our evidence and considered K's accounting dubious and imaginative.
2 more threatening letters to us personally (not to solicitor as he had requested) Then the big wammy 'seeking CCJ for Bankruptcy!!
Office of Fair Trading, Trading Standards and FMB were all contacted and were absolutely useless.
The OFT expressed horror at the letters we received from D Cs and said they contravened all the guidelines they would be contacted to remind them of guidelines!:zzz::zzz::zzz:
FMB notified me the builder had changed his name! Still a member- had been spoken to!:zzz::zzz::zzz:
We arrived at bankruptcy court to find they hadn't. Never turned up!:mad:
Judge sympathized with us and awarded us costs and £3000 damages.
We had to pay our solicitors costs because the B*st*rd changed his name again! It would cost us more to try get costs and damages from him!
As for the debt collecting agency -it's still going strong and still scaring the sh*t out of law abiding 'citizens' of good standing.
They wouldn't dare mess with those who couldn't give a damn about the law or decent behaviour.
Now this occurred over a 20 month period- it was hell but it was in the UK, which is famed for rogue traders and builders from hell! but also clients from Hell, which I hasten to add, was not.:).
If Kiwi trades people are known/thought to operate a rip-off -brit system are there not enough ex-pat brit trades people who could band together under one umbrella name-
Pipes Rusted? Get a plumber who's trusted!
[then list members]
Naff I know- but something like that.

Sorry for going on, but reading your posts brought it all back. Needed to get it out of the system!

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Thought of another!

Somethings Busted?
We can be trusted!
;)

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Jennifer yours is a very sorry tale indeed and I feel for you, and that's because in 20 years of running a business I have been in a very simular situation, oh about 30 times. Only difference is all mine were customers! I can assure you that there are more bad customers than there are trades people.

The difference is no-one is worried about the trades person. His problems with customers doesn't make good telly programs. When he goes under because of bad debts it doesn't make the newspaper.

With only 2 exceptions all of my bad customers were people who through their own decisions caused the problems. That is after the job had started they moved the goal posts.

As I mention before I go after EVERY debt. and I did so with all of these. In 30 odd cases I never lost one. But did I get my money in all 30 odd. No. There are scumbag people out there who know every way there is in not paying and sadly I've worked for them.

When work goes bad everyone loses. All I can suggest, and this is for everyone, have a contract of works in place BEFORE work starts. Set out what is expected and to what standard work is to be done and when payment is to be made.

I used to do this and we'd get stuff signed off as being completed and the customer satisfied and then they'd not pay because, oh the cat had to go to the vet, the car needed tyres, electric bill was bigger then they expected - what ever. Not my problem. They'd signed a contract - I'd kept my side and now I was expected to give them time to complete their side !!!!!!! Wonder what they'd say if the boot was on the other foot?

Finally and this is for everyone in kiwi land.

Coming from the uk I have a UK work culture. That is - Here's the price for the job. Now if I can get that job finished in under expected time and get on to my next job I make more money. However some of the people I work with work so much slower because they are on an hourly rate. They have morning and afternoon smoko, lunch and wander around a bit and YOUR bill just keeps on going up.

I've been on so many sites where I've been there two days for a full 1st fix and the plumbers have taken all week. You are being ripped off!!!!!!!

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Ahem ! Some plumbers are jolly good sorts who work their socks off for an honest crust .

I'd concur with Black Sheep. I'd be very careful about any 'invitation' to go and verbally discuss this with the company. It's a verbal agreement that got you into this mess. If that were me, I'd be shying away from any further verbal negotiations. I also agree that sometimes , even when someone with legal knowledge says there is nothing you can do , that it isn't always the case.

I was once told by a solicitor that there was nothing I could do about a tenant who defaulted and then did a bunk. I ignored that , held them accountable and had my day.

Good luck . I hope the firm come right for you.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

sorry Bev and everyone - didn't mean to single out plumbers - (one of my best mates back home is a plumber and he's a dam good one too). There are as many bad sparkies and chippies and painters as well. And that's here as well as there.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I know mate. I just couldn't resist. :lol:

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Hey Sparkie,
Hope you didn't think I had a downer on all trades folk.
This was just my unfortunate dealing with a scumbag recommended by a letting agent!
I know! I should have known better!:o

A lot of my son's friends are in trades. They have their own small businesses- electricians-plumbers-.Some of the rip off merchants [customers] they've met, would make a whole new TV series.
It's not the trade that's crooked- it's the individual. If they're that way inclined - they could be solicitors, doctors, police, teachers, plumbers, builders, electricians etc etc etc or CUSTOMERS! They are by Nature bent!

Hope to see you and other ex-pats trades/craftsmen set an example to the rest!:)

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Just to go off subject for a while, I recently up-skilled to Inspector level. There's no incentive to do so, in fact it costs you big bucks. The only incentive is wanting to be a better trades man. Anyway on a course of 14, (yep just 14 sparkies in the Wellington and South Island area wanted to become inspectors), how many do you think were kiwi's.

Five!

Two scots
two taffs
one bog trotter
one argie
one affrician
one brummie
one londoner

Now what does that tell you?

my Kiwi mate says that kiwi's (in general) are lazy (in terms of advancement) and that all this shows is that people who move half way round the world are keen to get on. I see that point as well.

Incidently is 2/3 x 1/3 figure is about right, year on year.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I think it's more a case that Kiwis work to live and enjoy life, where as brits live to work, make loads-a-money to buy things.
Hence why so many disallusioned brits choose to move out of the rat race to begin living again!
Example -one of many- my son's father in law is 91- still swims daily, plays bridge 3 times a week and cares devotedly at home for his wife of 78 who suffers from Altzeimers- with help from friends [neighbours] and health services. They are so rich! but you wouldn't know it judging by their possessions - only by hearing their laughter and seeing how much they get out of life still! ;)
That's what I'm aiming for- sod the latest TV/washer/car.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

you might be right. But I am one of the ex-pats who wants it all, (and is prepared to work for it). That must be a cultural difference

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

jennifer45 - are you in NZ yet? If not, let me nicely but strongly advise that you not try to find 'romantic excuses' for NZers (or expats for that matter) with 'different' work habits and ethics! 'Live and enjoy life' may sound great... until you're paying for someone else to live that easygoing lifestyle out of your own hard-earned money - and then having, yourself, to live a less-than-dreamy lifestyle entirely because of the shoddy and/or unexpected bank-breaking results of that 'laid back' attitude that you initially admired!

It may sound to some like exaggeration, but that is basically the story of our 6 years in NZ - paying out large sums of our HARD earned money to easy-going, chatty trades or services persons of the common 'she'll be right' attitude, who poo-poo any concerns we have with soothing reassurances about their 'expertise', or their ability to finish the job on time, or the cost of the job, or whatever ... and who then let us down, do not have the job done months later, grossly overcharge us, and/or leave us with a big mess, often one that ends up costing us far more to fix than the original job did. Time after time after time. And by the way, the attitude certainly often changes too, in Jeckyl and Hyde fashion, with 'Mr. Laid Back Nice Guy' quickly transforming into 'Mr. Not-Nice-at-ALL' the minute you dare (and some people don't dare unfortunately, intimidation can be very effective) to point out the often glaringly-obvious problems with the work done, to query higher-than-quoted bills, or to express any dissatisfaction with a less-than-satisfactory job done.

Having said all that, I have often wondered myself why expat tradespeople who know their trades well and have a good work ethic don't seem to have seen the great opportunity that this situation (see examples above) affords them to band together and start their own 'Pipes Rusted? Get a plumber who's trusted!' type firms that play up on the shortcomings of the local attitude, and promise a more 'professional' and 'upfront' and 'trustworthy' service (and with all work guaranteed would be brilliant!). The need and potential for such is ENORMOUS. I tried to convince at least one top-notch British builder I knew, who worked for a NZ company that kept letting him down, that he could have a thriving business of his own if he targeted the expat community - I know because I alone could have kept him in business for months at a time. The expat community here - especially those who have been here long enough to have experienced 'how the locals do it' - will almost always use expat tradespeople over locals if they have the opportunity, especially if they're charging similar prices. It has to be said though that there are also expat 'cowboys' here too, and in fact one of my first and most expensive 'cock up' experiences was at the hands of a Brit who'd been here for 10 years and was of the 'laid back' variety. Unfortunately, this 'laid back' lifestyle of NZ will be attracting some of the wrong types of immigrants as well as the 'right' ones.

So how about it all you 'good' tradespeople here? When you gonna join forces and start your own 'you REALLY can trust us to do what we say we're gonna do, guaranteed' businesses, so I can hire ya??

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Off Topic but in answer to the above.

Husband is a craftsman plumber and gasfitter from the UK with over 30 years of fully qualified experience. Did a 4 year apprenticeship .Has never been out of the trade. Was accredited in the UK for fitting solar. His gaswork is vast and varied. Not just central heating/boilers /gas-fires etc but also caravans , boats and all that. We ran our own small solar business alongside his plumbing and gasfitting.

Here in NZ he is a registered plumber and limited licensed gasfitter. To become a registered plumber he had to take a 3 hr exam. ( Now it's several days of assessments +exams costing $$$ thousands)
They refused to accept his gas certs, despite he passed their gas registration exam with flying colours, so he remains unregistered for gas. Bit of a laugh that when you consider just how little gaswork the average reg. nz gasfitter does or has ever seen.

As a registered plumber he is only allowed to work for someone else. His license (s) is countersigned by an NZ craftsman.

In order to become an NZ craftsman he would have to sit two more exams. One for plumbing and one a business exam.
To become registered for gas, he would have to have assessments and then do a block course or two for the National Certificate & then go for the gas craftsman.

All this costs money and time . To be honest, we are out of steam with it. Like the rest of you, we want to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle. He is knocking 50 this year and has little enthusiasm to spend hours, weeks, months studying to be able to take an old-fashioned NZ exam the NZ way.It's not so much the trade knowledge, it's the exam technique and the 1970's style format and terminology. Not good for a dyslexic.

He knows his trade inside out , upside down and back to front & there ain't nothing that this lot here have taught him that he didn't already know.
His UK quals, apprenticeship and work exp. were assessed at craftsman standard and had to be in order for him to gain PR in the trade, yet that isn't good enough .

The NZ myth is that their homegrown tradesmen are somehow a better standard or safer than the overseas tradesmen and in particular those from the UK but what a load of old baloney. Nearly 5 years here now and I've seen nothing that makes that piece of propaganda a truth. Talk about a legend in their own minds.

So, there you go. That's why one perfectly good, hard working , qualified craftsman plumber and gasfitter isn't out there with other quality tradies doing it for himself.

That's not to mention the 'keep it in the family ' stuff. Do you think Kiwis would want a group of Pommy tradesmen to do work for them ? Husband has built up a good reputation as a quality plumber, but there have been instances through the past few years where a Kiwi has refused to have the pommy plumber do the work.

Phew. I'll take a breath now. Rant over. :o

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I shall continue the rant shall I? Really pisses me off that the kiwis are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo arsey about their frigging quals. (one assumes because they want their craftspeople (big bloody snigger) to be wholly safe). Yet there is a drink drive and a really aggressive speeding culture, no compulsory ins, 15 year olds can drive whatever..up to 500bhp plus once test is passed, pre school kids are allowed REAL hammers, saws and nails..personally I think this country is a death trap..BUT woe betide you if you try to put up your own light fitting or you install a spa without a consent. Anyone want to continue rant????

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

:eek:

But seriously: Choice!! :rofl: :rofl:

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Ah yes I would actually, I will take the best person for the job, I couldn't give a monkeys where they come from, I had a washing machine serviceman in the house the other day, he was Scottish. I didn't send him packing because of where he was from. He looked at the machine then sent the bill. Easy.

When I went off to live in New South Wales in 1980 I could not practice my trade because my New Zealand served apprenticeship was not recognized by the state, so I went to live in WA where it was recognized, then I went to London where no one gave a rats a*se about my trade qualifications. Jobs were a dime a dozen.
UK = Cowboy Heaven.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I agree on the paradox you have pointed out Genesis; it is a strange old place indeed when you put it like that; however there are a lot of cowboys out there in the big wide world and they aren't all 1970's trained tradesmen from NZ. They come from other countries too....if some bloke steps of the plane from somewhere and tells you he is a surgeon are you going to let him remove your tumour? Or do you think it wise the health board looks at his claims a little closer?

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

I'm going to put in my ore.

Black sheep, yes you are right in everything you say. There are heaps of kiwi trades people - laid back - crap workers - nasty when you have a go at what they did/didn't do. Flip side I've met some good ones as well.

Genesis, don't even get me started on qual's - but it is a cultural thing and I've had this conversation so many times in the past with kiwi's The answer that keeps coming back is the cost of so much complaince. Lay back is best ???

Bev, I am so much with you. Your BH and me are very much in the same boat, but perhaps on different sides. Almost 30 years experience, C&G's so old they are in latin, (well actually Welsh) hence not acceptible - but been there/done that and now they believe me.

Black sheep - I've actually thought about advertising as an ex-pat with UK standards seeks work from Ex-Pat's. But I don't think that will work. It will piss off all the kiwi and my fellow kiwi workmates !

Janek - sorry mate but it's not cowboy heaven back home. I'll tell you why.
Speaking from the electrical industry here. If you do a job, or you have a job done by someone and it kills/hurts/cause's a fire then there is an investigation. I know cos I used to do them for the fire authority and the insurance industry. first thing we looked for, after discovering the cause, was the paper trail. That's where the cowboys suffer because they are unable to issue certs. What does that mean. Well it all falls on the householder and usually it means no insurance.

I'm not saying there aren't any cowboys - there are - BUT it is getting harder and harder for them to operate. And those who do only do so because certain home owners still just look for the cheapest estimate. Well serves them right.

in my experience things which cause 'situations' like this one are down to the householder having one picture in their mind and the tradesman having a totally different one, and when they don't match!!!!!!!!!!

I've learned to ask, ask and ask again. Get a price from the customer as to what they want and to what standard they want it. (they never match) and that's a good starting point.

Re: Advice Please Plumbers bill
 

Satisfied customers? references? word of mouth?

It's all back to basics, ask people you know who they used. Were they happy?
Then again, our recommended roofer was shiite. Hey ho, D.I.Wifey:thumbsup: