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Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Old Apr 11th 2006, 10:29 am
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Default Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

OK, so we don't actually in the Netherlands (yet) but will in few months time. The job prospects are quite good in IT and the lack of dutch doesn't seem to be a problem, so next I want to hear all those things about living in the Netherlands that you only find out once you're actually there ... the good, the bad and the ugly . We are currently in London, so any comparisons with the UK would be really great ...

The things I have come to expect in the Netherlands (haven't actually lived there so not sure if these will be true or not, but hope you can confirm):

- Food is awful (except if you like Indonesian cuisine that is)
- High taxes, but salaries somehow seem to go a lot further that in the UK
- Weather, same as in the UK (worse summers)
- Horrendous traffic
- Lots of stuff to do with kids, child- friendly country
- Good schools/ childcare in general
- Dutch people mainly quite reserved, difficult to mix with the locals


Please enlighten me...
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Old Apr 11th 2006, 2:22 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by Flor
- Food is awful (except if you like Indonesian cuisine that is)
- High taxes, but salaries somehow seem to go a lot further that in the UK
- Weather, same as in the UK (worse summers)
- Horrendous traffic
- Lots of stuff to do with kids, child- friendly country
- Good schools/ childcare in general
- Dutch people mainly quite reserved, difficult to mix with the locals
You don't say if you'd be working in one of the large cities or not, which makes a difference as to the answer.

1) In cities, no problem. Even in the countryside there are some good restaurants.

2) High taxes yes, but don't know how they compare to the UK's.

3) True, though don't know what you mean about "worse summers" -- maybe slightly cooler.

4) Yes, if you travel at peak times, there are traffic jams (called a "file") that are tens of kms long. However, it isn't any worse than US traffic. If you live close to your work, then it's not as much an issue. City parking is extremely expensive, so commuting to work on bicycle or public transport is attractive.

5) Yes, from what I have seen.

6) In the cities or university towns? No. In the countryside? Yes. Read up on "pillarization." If you were to live in the countryside you would really need to speak Dutch fairly well.

7) Read the book "The Undutchables."
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 5:29 am
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by Flor
OK, so we don't actually in the Netherlands (yet) but will in few months time. The job prospects are quite good in IT and the lack of dutch doesn't seem to be a problem, so next I want to hear all those things about living in the Netherlands that you only find out once you're actually there ... the good, the bad and the ugly . We are currently in London, so any comparisons with the UK would be really great ...

The things I have come to expect in the Netherlands (haven't actually lived there so not sure if these will be true or not, but hope you can confirm):

- Food is awful (except if you like Indonesian cuisine that is)
- High taxes, but salaries somehow seem to go a lot further that in the UK
- Weather, same as in the UK (worse summers)
- Horrendous traffic
- Lots of stuff to do with kids, child- friendly country
- Good schools/ childcare in general
- Dutch people mainly quite reserved, difficult to mix with the locals


Please enlighten me...
Hi Flor

I have lived and worked here in Holland for the last 19 years, and have enjoyed almost every moment until recently. My reasons for leaving are personal, so don't let that worry you.

As to the points you made :

Food : personally I think the food is OK. They have good things & bad thingd. My wife is Dutch so I am used to the Dutch kitchen, but over here you can get absolutely anything same as in the Uk. Resatuarants are much much better and cheaper than in the UK (cheaper than in the south anyway)

Taxes are higher, but mortgage rates are lower & you need to do tax returns at the end of the year, and you claim back on the interest paid on your mortgage. No better or worse than the Uk, just different in my opinion. I get over 2 grand back soon from last year (after paying for my company car)

Weather is colder in the winter (but generally drier) and IMO warmer and dryer in the summer. Don't forget europe is all very close at hand, so a 9 hour drive gets you to the Dordogne in France or Czech republic, Berlin etc. If you haven't got the weather you can go in search of it.

Traffic - definitely worse. Drivers are impatient, and on small overcrowded roads, everybody drives way too fast.

Kids : definitely a child friendly country. Most schools have excellent levels of education and facilities at schools and out of school very very good. Childcare good, but be prepared : VERY EXPENSIVE !!

Dutch people are in fact very open and to the point. Because it is a small country with big ambitions, they have no problem mixing with foreigners.

If you have any idea of where you are looking to move to, I can maybe help with some more advice.

Paul.

b.t.w. Language is not a problem, especially in IT. After about 3 years people do expect you to try to make some attempt at conversation.
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 5:35 am
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by snowbunny
You don't say if you'd be working in one of the large cities or not, which makes a difference as to the answer.

1) In cities, no problem. Even in the countryside there are some good restaurants.

2) High taxes yes, but don't know how they compare to the UK's.

3) True, though don't know what you mean about "worse summers" -- maybe slightly cooler.

4) Yes, if you travel at peak times, there are traffic jams (called a "file") that are tens of kms long. However, it isn't any worse than US traffic. If you live close to your work, then it's not as much an issue. City parking is extremely expensive, so commuting to work on bicycle or public transport is attractive.

5) Yes, from what I have seen.

6) In the cities or university towns? No. In the countryside? Yes. Read up on "pillarization." If you were to live in the countryside you would really need to speak Dutch fairly well.

7) Read the book "The Undutchables."
Hi Snowbunny, I don't know when you was over here for the last time, but traffic is becoming a serious problem. At the end of last year on two seperate occasions, we had traffic jams totalling over 800km at one point. :scared:
You can imagine what fun that was. I do agree that if you work local cycling or public transport are very good options.

As for the language, most kids nowadays spend all their time on computers, listening to music (UK & USA) or watching american TV, that the level of spoken English is now very high, it's just the older group that has trouble.

Paul
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 7:28 am
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by furkew
Hi Snowbunny, I don't know when you was over here for the last time, but traffic is becoming a serious problem. At the end of last year on two seperate occasions, we had traffic jams totalling over 800km at one point. :scared:
You can imagine what fun that was. I do agree that if you work local cycling or public transport are very good options.

As for the language, most kids nowadays spend all their time on computers, listening to music (UK & USA) or watching american TV, that the level of spoken English is now very high, it's just the older group that has trouble.
As in sig was over in February -- and yes the traffic is awful awful on the "motorways" .... I listen sometimes to Yorin FM and the traffic report is basically "it sucks everywhere"!

But by driving off-peak (and I mean off-peak as in during the middle of the night) there was zero traffic.

As for speaking Dutch :- yes, most people say 45 or so and under usually are somewhat proficient in English, but those over that age -- no. So again, depends. My sister-in-law is very proficient in English, her partner is fairly good, my mother-in-law only enough to combine with women's intuition to guess when we're up to something and my father-in-law doesn't really speak any English. So..... were I to live there I'd definitely try to learn at least some of it. It's not an easy language to speak perfectly, but easy enough to learn some survival Dutch. A knowledge of German *helps*.
Depending, a newcomer may have to take language classes, but even if not, they are free, the "insburgeringcurses" -- I don't have that spelt right but close.

My few guilders,

Amy
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 8:27 am
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by snowbunny
As in sig was over in February -- and yes the traffic is awful awful on the "motorways" .... I listen sometimes to Yorin FM and the traffic report is basically "it sucks everywhere"!

But by driving off-peak (and I mean off-peak as in during the middle of the night) there was zero traffic.

As for speaking Dutch :- yes, most people say 45 or so and under usually are somewhat proficient in English, but those over that age -- no. So again, depends. My sister-in-law is very proficient in English, her partner is fairly good, my mother-in-law only enough to combine with women's intuition to guess when we're up to something and my father-in-law doesn't really speak any English. So..... were I to live there I'd definitely try to learn at least some of it. It's not an easy language to speak perfectly, but easy enough to learn some survival Dutch. A knowledge of German *helps*.
Depending, a newcomer may have to take language classes, but even if not, they are free, the "insburgeringcurses" -- I don't have that spelt right but close.

My few guilders,

Amy
I always drive off peak, working here in the flower auctions.
always peaceful at 04.30am

I found by mixing with the locals as much as possible, and not expats, you do pick up the language a lot quicker.

b.t.w. it euro's now not guilders

you don't get so much for them.
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 3:56 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Thank you all for your responses, much appreciated!! It really helps to have an idea of what is life really like over there (something somewhat difficult to do during a week holiday in the Netherlands!!).

I have another concern ... I have read several comments about Dutch people being sometimes not so tolerant of inmigration. We are mixed couple (my husband is of black African origin, born and bread in London) and sometimes in certain European countries we get stared at quite a lot. Not in a violent way and just out of curiosity, but uncomfortable nevertheless. I wonder if anyone could advice whether this will be the case in the Netherlands, in places like The Hague, Utrecht, Amsterdam ........

Cheers
-Flor
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 5:37 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by Flor
Thank you all for your responses, much appreciated!! It really helps to have an idea of what is life really like over there (something somewhat difficult to do during a week holiday in the Netherlands!!).

I have another concern ... I have read several comments about Dutch people being sometimes not so tolerant of inmigration. We are mixed couple (my husband is of black African origin, born and bread in London) and sometimes in certain European countries we get stared at quite a lot. Not in a violent way and just out of curiosity, but uncomfortable nevertheless. I wonder if anyone could advice whether this will be the case in the Netherlands, in places like The Hague, Utrecht, Amsterdam ........

Cheers
-Flor
I don't really think it will be too much different to in the Uk. Over here it is prominently Turks & marrocans. There is some friction between them & the Dutch, but no more than in the UK with Pakistani's & Indians. The general feeling is, if you are prepared to integrate in Holland, and work and not scrounge, you should be accepted quite quickly.

Amsterdam is very multi culteral, Rotterdam is 51% immigrants/foreigners, The hague also has a very large population of Turks, Marrocans etc, only Utrecht not quite so much, but again you should have no probs.

Without trying to sound racist (because I definitely am NOT) if you are living in an estate of average or above average price range, any coloured people are looked at differently. (on the same level as everybody else) I say this from experience. The estate I live in is better than the normal, and I live amongst coloured, gay, lesbian and hetro caucasians, and because we are all " succesful" everybody is regarded as equal. I think you might understand what I mean.

I'm sure that you will have no probs settling in.

If you want more in depth advice, send me a PM, and I can mail my phone number if you fancy a chat.

Paul.
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 5:58 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by furkew
I always drive off peak, working here in the flower auctions.
always peaceful at 04.30am

I found by mixing with the locals as much as possible, and not expats, you do pick up the language a lot quicker.

b.t.w. it euro's now not guilders
I know it's Euros it just added a Dutch touch.... my husband is always pinching Euros and not guilders!

(gulders?)

Yes, it's amazing how quickly you pick it up when you're immersed. Kind of like.... swimming!

I sooooo wanted to go to Alsmeer and didn't get to go there in part because we shot a day on the embassy being closed.
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 6:00 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by furkew
Amsterdam is very multi culteral, Rotterdam is 51% immigrants/foreigners, The hague also has a very large population of Turks, Marrocans etc, only Utrecht not quite so much, but again you should have no probs.
Toon's friend is in IT and his sister in biotech nearish Eindhoven, and I certainly did not notice a huge immigrant population in these areas. There's a university at Eindhoven specialising in technology.

His username here is Toontje and please feel free to give him an earful!
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 6:08 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by snowbunny
I know it's Euros it just added a Dutch touch.... my husband is always pinching Euros and not guilders!

(gulders?)

Yes, it's amazing how quickly you pick it up when you're immersed. Kind of like.... swimming!

I sooooo wanted to go to Alsmeer and didn't get to go there in part because we shot a day on the embassy being closed.
Thats a shame because it is just amazing to see it for the first time. I have worked for 19 years on the auctions, and it sometimes still amazes me.

BTW it was Guldens in Dutch.

Congrats with Toon as well. The waiting is finally over.

does that mean it will go quiet here on BE when you guys get together, if you know what I mean (Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 6:31 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by furkew
Thats a shame because it is just amazing to see it for the first time. I have worked for 19 years on the auctions, and it sometimes still amazes me.

BTW it was Guldens in Dutch.

Congrats with Toon as well. The waiting is finally over.

does that mean it will go quiet here on BE when you guys get together, if you know what I mean (Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink)
GRRRRRRRRRRRR about Alsmeer...... I have used up all my holiday time, and my leave is unpaid. I am chained to my desk for a long time!

No, are you crazy go quiet? Karma pimp? I am a karma widow!
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Old Apr 13th 2006, 6:51 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Originally Posted by snowbunny
GRRRRRRRRRRRR about Alsmeer...... I have used up all my holiday time, and my leave is unpaid. I am chained to my desk for a long time!

No, are you crazy go quiet? Karma pimp? I am a karma widow!
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Old Apr 17th 2006, 6:04 pm
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Talking Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

It's fun to read this as a dutch person!!
haha

We are planning to migrate so you can better not ask me those questions
Were not a big fan of holland
But most of you guys are probably going to Amsterdam or another big city so that's very different..
I'm also not a big fan of Amsterdam so
We live in Eindhoven that's a very different place and the people from here are also VERY different then in Amsterdam..
So like someone said that People over here are reserved, overhere they are very open and welcome..
So it depends on wich place your gonna live in Holland
I will follow this one to see what more stuff your gonna say
Good luck and goodbye
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Old Apr 17th 2006, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: Netherlands - the good, the bad and the ugly?

Well flor,

You got all those things right,I also live in Holland except for the food maybe,there are plenty of different restaurants.
About the people,it really depends on where you live.I've lived in different parts in Holland,for example,in the north(small village)people are nicer than in the big city.I live in Almere,near Amsterdam and I absolutely HATE the mentality here.
I also get the impression Dutch people are kind to visitors but foreigners actually living&working here(especially with dark skin color)are treated like sh*t.
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