extexan68

Family S, I have NEVER heard of a "disease stamp" in all my time living here. Sure there are problems occasionally at school, but there isn't school anywhere in the world with out! As for gifted kids, depends on the school. At my sons school kids who excel can move up a grade and if your gifted you will most likely end up in Gymnasium anyway and that is a very good education!!! I had an average daughter and above avg son. Even at the avg level high school my daughter was at a higher level then I was at 18 graduating regualr HS.

Where there is a major problem is in the Middel Beroeps Opleidingen MBO, now I will admit that is not well organized either and would advise children who are capable of going on to HAVO after VMBO I would do that so that you could go on to HBO.

Family S

If you have gifted kids please read this forum about all the trouble they have in the Netherlands: http://www.hb-kind-forum.nl

About the stamps:
There are classrooms that only have one of two kids without them.
They are even embarrassed because they don't have one!!
ADD, ADHD, PDD-NOS, Dyslectic, ODD etc.
And all stamps come with a large bucket of money for the school.
Offcourse there are good schools too, but you have to really search for them.
And if your kid is really gifted (IQ>130) it's like finding a needle in a haystack.
Even the gymnasium and skipping classed can help them.
I know kids who skipped 3 classes and go to the gymnasium at age 9!!
Not a great idea between all the things that go on in a school with teenagers.
I know parents who had to change schools 6 times before the kid was 14!
And a very depressed kid at home all the time.
A good book about the problems gifted kids have in the Netherlands is "slimpiepers" ISBN: 978 90 816269 1 0
Her kid even tried to commit suicide at the age of 7 and it isn't uncommon.
I know more true stories like that that I wanted to know.
The government doesn't think it's a problem and even the schools for the gifted (Leonardoscholen) don't get any support from the government and the first ones are gone again because of the finances.
Our son (6 yr old) has PTSD because of school!!
I'm so glad we are leaving.

gelato

If you home school I really hope someone else teaches your kids grammar and spelling.

Family S

Don't get personal please!!

Remember: I'm Dutch, not English. We don't have a choice!! We have to home school!!

gelato

OK if you're not a native speaker of English then fair enough.

I know my husband (who is from a working class background in a small Dutch village) got a great education and I'd definitely say he was gifted. He speaks 7 languages and is one of the smartest people I've ever met. No one else in his family had ever gone to university but the teachers picked up on the fact that he was smart and put him in the 'smart kids' high school (not sure what it's called in Holland it's the equivalent of the liceo here in Italy). Then he was encouraged by the teachers to go to university (even though his parents were totally against it as they don't like book larnin') and got a full scholarship which paid for everything including books. Of course he's in his 40s so this was a long time ago. But I was impressed because here in Italy if your parents don't support you financially and in other ways (ie. through connections) you'd never make it to university no matter how smart you are. You meet lots of really intelligent and well read waiters and shop assistants here.

Has this changed?

Family S

Yes, that changed a lot.
The government cut massively on public education.
And again this year they cut 300 million on education alone.
Schools for kids with autism are threatened to be closed this year.
Those kids can't go to a normal school, but the government won't make an exception for them! So there's no school for them any more.
The scholarships are almost gone, the biggest part of the scholarships became government loans.
And if you don't get your diploma on time you have to give the complete scholarship back to the government.
If your average, the school has a problem.
No money for good education or help in the classrooms and sometimes classes with 30 kids or more.
That's why the schools are happy if the kids can get a "stamp".
That way they can get more money for their school.

extexan68

My husband was in the School Committee and building comittee of our new schools in the area and having a stamp is something he has never heard of so maybe it deosn't happen every where.

An outsiders view...is that many Dutch feel all individual needs need to be accommodated. This is an impossible task no matter where you live. Sad as it may be but EVERYTHING comes down to a financial "plaatje" ALL children should be treated equal just because you are born gifted or have a handicap all should get equal treatment. If there were more gifted schools then that still would not please all parents as it might be to far away for them to get there. T

its a no win situation...you cannot please everyone. I will agree that they should not be cutting back financial support in the schools, but I do feel schools could be ran much more effectively and efficiently and that is where they could gain financially.

It seems you have had a bad experience, and I am sorry for that....but I have not, rather a fairly good one. So to box all schools as bad is not fair as most are good but there are bad ones out there. But that again happens every where not just here in the Netherlands.

As for further education....the Dutch have enjoyed a system of all being able attend, regardless of the parents financial situation. Something I thought and still think is very fair. Growing up in the US I did not have that luxury. Either you had rich parents, took out huge student loans (is not uncommon to leave university with a loan of $100,000) or the lower incomes might get some grants.SOmethign that here in Holland the majority do not even come close too!!!

BUT for the students who do take to long, they are talking roughly about 2 years too long, they do not lose their financial aid but maybe required to pay extra tuition. I do not see why not. There comes a time when you have to take responsibilty for your own actions. Sure an illness or a death in the family may side track a study, but taking longer then 2 years then necessary to finish a study should not fall on the governemnt or tax payers shoulders.

The Dutch do not realize how good they have it when it comes to higher education. Do I think they are perfect? NO, there is always room for improvement. But at least you can all get a chance to go!!!

Family S

Yes, a kid from South Africa will do everything for the Dutch schoolsystem, but that doesn't mean dozens of Dutch gifted children are very depressed due to school every year, some even commit suicide.
And they don't want special treatment, they just don't want to be bored each day.

extexan68

That is sad I agree....but my point is there seems to be a lot of "boxing in" Just because some schools do not excel at that doesn't mean they are all that way. My son had 3 gifted children in his class...the children themselves choose not to move up but did get to study above their peers.

To say an African child would welcome the school system in Holland a very racial remark. And I can't imagine you would think it is even worth comparing the 2. Is like comparing apples and oranges.

In the US it happens as well that some kids are in University before they are even teenagers. Emotionally I can imagine it is not ideal situation but if it is what stops them from being bored. Problem with that I would agree that could be finished beofre they are even old enough to work. And then what... there has to be a limit in what a school should have to do. Otherwise, if we are going to accomodate every single child for their individual needs they would all need private teachers.

The schools are required to have a curriculum that fits that level of HS. If you can do Gymnasium with "2 fingers in your nose" then you indeed excel and are gifted. But where is the parents responisbility in this. I feel if you have such a child surely they can also help them with their desire for learning more. Yes the school should do what they can at school, but if a child has a desire for evenmore, he and his parents should also think outside the box to accomodate his/her need for knowledge.

Basically its where do you draw the line.....you said yourself for the few dozen gifted....there are more then a few dozen challenged students who deserve the same needs as a gifted child. I never said it is a perfect system but I feel we all have a resposnibility as parents to do what is right for our own child. If some have moved to Beligium becasue of it then thye have the right to do that and should if they feel they are going to get a better education. But the Boxing of all gifted children are not given enough stimulation is just not correct.

Lothianlad

The Daily Mail columnist Liz Jones, the woman responsible for writing this article which appeared in today's Daily Mail (10/03/11), portrays the Netherlands as a country which has been by-passed by the ravages of feminist ideology, and as a result is a virtual heaven on earth for many women for the reasons made clear in the article itself.

Unfortunately many of the comments appearing in the relative section at the base of the article are hardly complimentary about the country and the Dutch people generally. On the other hand, replies from Dutch readers themselves more or less say that Liz Jones is simply talking a load of cobblers, complete BS.....she does not state the actual truth.

I have two Dutch friends living close to Eindhoven and whom I meet up with fairly regularly when I nip over there or they nip across to Scotland here, and they are two of the loveliest people you could ever wish to meet. But they hardly equate with any of the issues detailed in this article as they both work full time earning good money in jobs they each enjoy and they share all expenses equally right down the middle......and happen to be in a gay partnership.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar....html#comments

HelenTD

I read that Daily Mail article too. I must pass on the link to my sister in the Netherlands. Her husband left her for another woman, she was left with 4 children aged 1 to 10 years. She was ripped off by the divorce system, didn't receive adequate financial support for her or the children, and has to work 2 part-time jobs over 5 days a week, one of them involving 3 hours of travel a day. She has scraped by for years. Her husband is refusing to pay the college fees for one child, but instead of the school chasing the father for payment, the child, who is now over 18, must prosecute his father, something he doesn't want to do. My sister is waiting for the youngest to finish his education, and then getting out of the Netherlands. From what she's told me of the health, banking and justice systems, it's not a good place for consumers.

snowbunny

Parents are responsible for their children up to age 26 (I believe) so your nephew is well within his rights to sue his father for support. If your nephew instead started to receive benefit, they could also go after the father for repayment.

Does your sister receive child support from her husband? They can revisit the amount, and if he is living with or re-married to the "other" woman, can even consider her income in determining how much the father can pay. There's a lot of crack-down on parents to be responsible for their children and it sounds as if your sister is doing all she can do.

I feel for your sister; however in the current "economic climate" it is getting hard for all working families to scrape by and I'm not sure it will be a lot better in any other country. Divorces are financial nightmares in any country. Can your sister get legal aid to evaluate her case in asking for an adjustment of support?

HelenTD

She did get legal aid, but unfortunately not as good as the lawyer her husband could afford. At the moment she's struggling too much financially to afford a good lawyer to re-visit the issue, as she is experiencing major problems with her bank.

I don't know if she is still getting any financial support from her ex. Her son hasn't sued his father for support as he is too scared to upset him. There is also an extremely difficult 2nd wife who controls my ex-brother-in-law's finances. My sister didn't even end up with the house free of mortgage and she has had to pay that as well. I am ringing her up in the next couple of days so I will ask for a few more details, so thanks for the info.

gelato

I'm really sorry about your sister's situation, Helen. Unfortunately this is a common problem when the less financially secure spouse (usually the woman) does not have the money to hire as good a lawyer as her ex - and not only in the Netherlands. Having a really good lawyer is just so important in any legal system.

I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive (and I have no idea about Helen's sister's exact situation) but, unfortunately, a scenario such as Helen describes is the dark side of the financial dependence on partners which, it seems, a lot of Dutch (and other) women seem to be quite comfortable with. My husband's female relatives all work part time, missing out on promotions and generally depending on their male partners to bring home most of the bacon even though their children are now teenagers. Conversely their male partners rely on the women to do most of the unpaid work at home. This is all very well when things are going well but when one of them got divorced recently she ended up in serious financial trouble.

Putting all one's eggs in one basket is never a good idea IMO. But maybe I'm more cynical than most since I'm a child of divorce and I've also seen many friends get divorced too. FWIW my husband and I are very happy together at the moment but I like the idea that if something terrible happenned my child and I wouldn't be financially destitute because I work FT.

The Daily Mail article may be a bit of an exaggeration (I can't see the comments) but it is true that Dutch people seem to have a very 'traditional' gender set up with a huge proportion of women and not very many men working part time. With that set up it seems pretty obvious that women and men's roles are thought of very differently in Dutch society. This is one of the things which freak me out about the idea of moving to NL especially with a young daughter.

snowbunny

I agree with all that you say - but again, this arrangement is found in countries throughout the world. Women are still expected to be unpaid carers for the home, the children, the elderly, the ill....

Worse than mommy-tracking is the attitude toward women in a given profession. If a career is thought to be suitable for women, the wages will drop - conversely, if thought suitable for men, wages rise.