neurotic

Thanks for your reply, I'm pretty sure now that the noises I heard were my dreams so for now I trust the peppermint oil and that I'm cleaning like a maniac! I did buy some traps but I will only use them when I'm certain that I have unwanted flatmates.

I feel somewhat scared that even after 30 years you call it a "rollercoaster ride" haha! For me it's not very enjoyable so far, but it's mostly due to personal circumstances rather than the country's fault. I'm only really angry at the financial sacrifice I had to make for something I only know for certain in the very short term, so it might not even pay off. Then there are personal things that are painful because of the life I put on hold for this. I don't like being without my boyfriend and friends and family, and there's the particular loneliness from being isolated by language barriers. I miss the familiar places and the simplicity of things (and people), I miss the countryside in general and driving on it (wow I didn't realise how much I don't like cyclists and the public transport!)...

On the other hand I really enjoy the working culture, the company, the colleagues, I feel valued and I think I can learn and develop a lot. I live in a beautiful town and even with higher taxes I still earn more money than I ever did in the UK, so it does have its upsides, I just want to get to actually enjoying them because so far there's been some kind of upset for almost every day!

neurotic

So the work thing has been working out well but then some things happened there and they started to get rid of people on temporary contracts. When it was first due, they gave me an extension, but after that one expires, I think I might also have to move back soon, which I don't mind because I'm becoming quite homesick, but I will also be sad of course as I learnt to enjoy life here.

The reason I'm posting again is because I have questions again about the housing situation, but this time about moving out. I have been warned about Dutch landlords not paying deposits back and I'm absolutely terrified of this. I have paid more than 2000 € (three months' rent!), and it's way too much money to just let it go in case they want to argue. I have had zero issues and I would leave the flat in a better condition than I got it, however I'm quite cynical that there will be some excuse not to pay me back the full amount or something. When I checked in, they have promised to give me some money for cleaning because it was dirty at check-in and that never happened, although I never really chased them for it. They also said I can buy some curtains and they would give me the money back for it too but I didn't bother with that either. I have never been in touch with the landlord's agency apart from a few weeks when there was no internet in the building (left us for weeks like that...).

I found it through an agency and they took some pictures at check-in, but I don't have them anymore, I don't know where they are, I think I lost them. I will ask to send them again, but in case they can't find it either, is there a chance that the faulty things (e.g. floor faults, stains on the wall that were there before, etc.), will be written on me? Is there a way to defend myself against such things? I'm terrified and I'm crying in advance again because without getting this deposit back I will not have made a profit on this adventure here and I might not find a job to go back to for a while so I will really need the money. Please help, any advice is much appreciated.

Red_Wine_Fairy

Oh dear Is it not possible for you to start looking for a new job in your field? Or is the call of home too strong?

1) did you take out any insurances here, and was rechtsbijstandverzkering included (it sometimes is if you take out tenants insurance)?
2) would you be willing to fork out another 36 euros for membership of this: https://www.huurwoningen.nl/info/woonbond/, which would entitle you to legal assistance in the event of landlord disputes?

You are right - you NEED those photos! The fact you handed over three months rent tells you all you need to know about this landlord. The agent is paid by the landlord I guess (or was he working for/found and paid for by you?) so don't expect him to intervene on your behalf. He's possibly one of those landlords who knows expats are naive about housing laws, which is why expats are so attractive to Dutch landlords.

I have to tell you though, it is unlikely you would be going home with this money - it can take a couple of years to settle this kind of dispute. If you have a day off work (don't take holidays as cash at the end of contract, you pay 52% tax on them) and want to educate yourself, make an appointment at Het Juridisch Loket in Amsterdam https://www.juridischloket.nl/ to get some free legal advice. I can tell you for free: insist on an exit inspection with the agent or landlord - take photos on the day - and have a witness (perhaps Woonbond would put you in touch with someone who does this kind of thing) with you so they can't change their story afterwards. I know for a fact (from experience) that some 'agents' will tell you the standard is unsatisfactory because there's a mark on the wall which means the room will need painting, or there's a scratch on the wood floor which means they'll need to refloor it before the next tenant.... but they know a company who will charge you half the price that the landlord would........ seriously, these folk have no shame! So have someone with you! And get a signature on the day to say it's satisfactory and list (and photograph) EVERYTHING the agent disputes. Because if/when it goes to court - and it often does because absent expats can't speak but the landlord can - the deposit is lost.

You are right to consider this now. Don't be scared, you just need to know what to do

Edit: finally, How long was your contract for? Did you have a diplomatic clause put into the contract (allowing you to cancel early if your job ended or relocated)? If not, and if you have a standard 12 month lease, you are likely to be liable for those full 12 months. That is something to consider.

neurotic

Wow thank you, again you are providing some useful info here.

There are two agencies here. The property agency is the landlord's, but I did hire a separate agency who found this flat for me, they did argue with the landlord on my behalf, because initially they wanted a fixed time contract ( they also argued about not having to pay three months' deposit but because I wanted to move in quickly I told them to give up and to accept this bit.) Somebody from them took the photos for me. There was a checklist on checking in and a proper checkout is required to happen at the end too. They seem quite organised and trustworthy on the surface, I'm just scared because of these stories I keep hearing. I will contact them for the photos. But, do have a chance if they are lost? I'm getting so angry in advance about this lol it's not helping but but but... I REALLY want that money back!!!!

As for insurance, I don't recognise the word, but I do have a general liability insurance, the one I got with my bank account and costs approx 5 euro a month. Is this the one you're talking about? Will this help?

Is it worth joining the organisation you linked to, will they help if there is a dispute? Does it often end up in a dispute...? I don't want to deal with it any more, I already forked out the one month's rent fee for the agency, I already left a small fortune in the crappy AirBnB room (my blood's still boiling thinking about that!), I just want my money back from here and go home...

I don't want to look for another job in this country anymore, my boyfriend is still in Scotland and it's getting tiring seeing him once every month or so. He has no transferable skills and speaks no Dutch to make it worth to give up his reasonably paying job to take part in this adventure for me. I have already invested in our life together there and it's frustrating that nothing here is mine, I want to be in the life I took part building already. It's just a shame about the job because it was promising at the start. It has been very interesting and I have learnt really, really a lot, but now my career has taken a direction that is maybe too niche to find anything similar in the UK heh... I started looking and if I can't find anything I'll just set up business I guess and go freelance. I'm not hugely afraid of this prospect but I NEEEEED THE MONEEEYYY lol.

calman014

Back to reality:

It's unlikely you will get the money back in the hand. Many of your assumptions are far-fetched unfortunately. Not a good idea to be depending on that money.

You can't expect to come abroad, work a few months and go back to UK having made a profit or even with cash in hand. It takes years to build something up especially if you start from scratch..I know because I did it myself.

Under normal circumstances, with a decent letting agent or landlord, the procedure would be for you to give in your notice and live rent-free for the period of your deposit, 3 months in this case.

Stop panicking and contact the agency who helped you in the beginning. Start there before creating any doom scenarios.

All career moves add to your experience. Even if it took a spell in NL to convince you that you should be in Scotland..you have gained from the experience.

Good luck.

neurotic

The starting phrase "back to reality" sounds a little patronising.

"You can't expect to come abroad, work a few months and go back to UK having made a profit or even with cash in hand." Sorry to defy your experience, but that's exactly what's happening, I will have the money back, at least to the amount I spent on this move. It's going to come back if I stay here until the end of my contract even if I'm not getting the deposit back. Without the deposit, I will not have made a profit, but my savings will be there at least, if i'm calculating right. Let me put this into context: I moved within the EU, an hour's flight away from Edinburgh, on a temporary contract, for getting a career boost, not to start a new life... No kids, no pets, no car, just two suitcases. So, it wasn't that expensive, but that was ALL my money. So, when it's not that much, you can get it back within a year working full-time, I guess. I guess for the proper adults posting here with respectable professions who get 20k relocation packages to move their expertise overseas, we are talking about peanuts lol, but as a creative trades millennial, that's what I've got to work with heh.

So, I'm not depending on the deposit but it is a significant amount, and I need it in case I will not find a job upon moving back. Saying things like "it's not a good idea depending on it" and that "it's unlikely you'll get it back" are not helping me or anyone reading in a similar situation, because resigning to losing it is exactly why these landlords are doing it. This is why they are getting away with it, because people just assume it is lost already. Sorry, not on my watch! The security deposit is for the landlord's to use if any damage is done, but I will be handing this flat over in a better condition than it was! How could they possibly justify keeping MY money?

Also, I can't just stop paying for my last 3 months because first of all I don't think it's allowed, and secondly, I will only get a month's notice from my employer about my contract, and in case they offer I would like to stay a few more months (to build up more money.) At the end of which process I will STILL be expecting the money back. It is more than a months' salary. I'm sorry but trying to convince me to learn living without it has p*ssed me off.

Of course, in non-material terms, it was worth it! I'm very very grateful for the experience, because I learnt so much, and I got to know so many talented people, and I think I know myself and my strengths more too. I wish I could move the office to where I want to live with my love, but I can't! For the job it was extremely worth it, but the UK economy is different and I don't know if I can continue with what I do here, or in this direction at all, unless I want to move to London which I don't. So I need to get prepared with Plan Bs, Cs, and Ds, and within that, indeed some doom scenarios too! So, I'm also having to prepare to fight for what is mine. I worked really hard and I want it to be worth financially too, especially if harder times are going to come, I don't think this is far-fetched.

neurotic

Update: I did not get my contract renewed and I do have to leave. There are no photos from the checkin, but I took a few when I went and visited the flat for the viewing so at least the main damages before me are recorded.

The ripoff / bullshitting already started with the landlord as I asked for an earlier checkout date than the end of the month (I might have to be at home on the 1st already). First they said no problem I can just give them the keys whenever, but I insisted on a full checkout report because I don't want to be liable against any bullshit claims about the state of the flat. So that official checkout thing, with a representative of the company will now cost me 50 euro and they are only doing it because I asked and am willing to pay for it lol. But, I'd rather pay 50 euros than get hundreds off the deposit for things I didn't do... I will bring my boyfriend to the checkout too and whatever we agree on, at least I will have it in writing and I can take it further if I need to, but hopefully it will be OK? What do you think? Any anecdotes/experiences etc?

Red_Wine_Fairy

I think you're doing exactly the right thing. You need the inspection, you need evidence, and a signature that you agree. Get a receipt for the 50 euros as evidence that the inspection happened/they viewed it with you. They are counting on this...''I just want my money back from here and go home... '' - most expats don't pursue the stolen deposit money because they want to put the experience behind them/fresh start. Now, I would probably even get the agent to commit to a date when the money will be in your bank, making sure that they have that commitment in writing and signed for it. When approaching this whole matter, always ask yourself what evidence a court would want (it is possible for you to make a written submission, you don't need to attend in person) IF it gets to that stage. Heck, even record it on your mobile in your pocket Oh, and claim the 50 back via the small claims too. But perhaps making sure the agents know you're deadly serious about having your deposit back asap will be enough for him to realise this isn't going to be the end, if he doesn't play ball. Good Luck!

neurotic

Thanks! And it's good to know that I can chase it still from abroad, I was totally planning to looking into that haha! I do want to go home soon but I'm not letting money go away, especially not this amount. I think having my boyfriend around will be good too for the checkout. We will have a weekend before to tidy and clean and there should be zero problems. The landlord's agent said he will send an invoice and an email confirmation of the appointment, but he hasn't yet so I haven't paid but I'm counting that it will happen. I need an invoice first though. Getting the date written down is a good idea, although they do say "4 weeks" but specifying a day is a good idea, thanks. I think they are already aware that I want the money back, hence I insist on the in-person appointment and the written report.

I didn't know I could claim the 50 back but I might even try that one too... You're so full of good tips, I really appreciate it, thank you!

Red_Wine_Fairy

Just make sure that you document absolutely everything. Email, not phone calls. Call me a cynic, but they might be waiting for you to leave without making contact with you - because experience tells them most expats don't put up a fight once they've gone home.

I'd be sending an email every couple of days asking when they will come. If they try to claim an inspection visit was arranged for after you left/that you never responded, etc, the judge will be mightily unimpressed with them once he's seen you were almost begging for an inspection. I would still go to the Juridisch Loket and perhaps - just perhaps - they could recommend what to do to force the issue of an inspection, or if someone (community mediator?) could get involved to make sure the agent knows you are serious about this.

spouse of scouse

Did you get your deposit back?

neurotic

Not yet! But the inspection went fine, everything was in place, and I was given a written report that everything was in good condition and nothing was missing and everything was clean. So I'm optimistic, HOWEVER... the deposit is supposed to be back after 4 weeks (!!!) of "official delivery", which was when somebody moved in, on the 1st November. (I started my new job on the 1st back in the UK so I couldn't possibly stay that long.)

I don't quite understand the 4-week rule, since that means that if the new tenant has any complaints to the landlord, it's possible it will come off my deposit?! When I moved in, I got a brand new sofa-bed because the previous one was wrecked. I guess it must have come out of the previous tenant's deposit, which would only be fair if they had told the previous guy before he left, that the bed is unacceptable. If they deemed it fine at the time then they should pay for it from the maintenance fee I guess, shouldn't they? I will absolutely not agree to be charged for any new furniture since the guy inspected it and said was fine and I have the written report of that.

But I heard about landlords in Amsterdam from ex-colleagues doing the same thing to them, I wonder how common that is and what I could do? The story I was told was that after they moved out, the next tenant complained about the mice traps (not even mice, just the traps they left behind for the next tenant!), and the landlord called the exterminator and charged the previous tenant for it. In the end I think they got their money back but they had to fight for it. I'm nervous about this story in particular because that old building will 100% get mice during the winter... I kept them away by storing food in the microwave and the fridge, by ultrasonic repellents and peppermint oil. I got some traps but they never caught anything so I threw them away as I learnt from my ex-colleague even those could get you in trouble... So I'm now waiting to see if the new tenant will kick up a fuss. Either way though I shouldn't be charged now I don't think and I'm ready to fight for my money lol.

neurotic

UPDATE: Today I received my deposit, up to the last cent! I am a very very very happy person right now! Quite unexpectedly came today with no email or anything, extremely happy! (I lost maybe about £100 on the exchange rate because there might be some kind of Brexit deal achieved and the pound went up just today lol...) So overall, my Dutch year was a fantastic experience, I made lots of new friends, gained lots of experience, grew in many ways. Two things I was terrified of: having to live in a house share and not getting my deposit back. I managed to avoid both of them with a lot of preparation and your helpful advices so thank you all for all your comments and posts!

Red_Wine_Fairy

That sounds like a door has closed. I'm almost sad now, because you have kept this forum lively and although I'm really happy that everything turned out for the best, I will miss your lovely (neurotic) posts Best wishes and please don't be a stranger You have lots of experience to offer people in the same boat now.