UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Mar 16th 2011, 11:26 am
#1
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I know I have posted along these lines a couple of times but things between my wife and me are reaching breaking point. If anyone could give me some guidance that would be helpful. In summary my wife has moved over here and amongst other issues hasn’t settled well and is considering moving back to the US and taking the kids with her. She works as a legal secretary and has, it transpires, had some advice. She believes that her case is pretty strong based on the following points:
1) The kids were born in the US and have US birth certificates and social security numbers
2) We have been back here less than a year and she is going to say I forced her to come back
3) The kids are 6 and 3 and most judges give custody to the mother
4) She has been told that the kids’ “habitual residence” is the US based on less than a year here and more time spent there.
5) She is also saying that she will be supported by her family over there so won’t be working and will be at home spending time with the kids.
6) She used to work nights in the US so is saying she's classed as Primary care giver.
I would counter these arguments point by point with the facts that:
1) Although they were born there they have UK passports and citizenship.
2) We have sold the house and moved back, we have taken a 12 month lease on a rental property and the children are in full time education here.
3) I’m not sure but believe (and hope) that this is an out-dated idea, I could be wrong.
4) I have read that there is no set definition re “habitual residence” but think the fact that we moved here and kids study here counts for something. I have a letter from when we first moved here with her permission to move here and the visa process was going on for a year or more so me forcing her is clearly a lie.
5) From Sept the kids are both in full time education, I work 9 to 5 and my Mum takes care of them sometimes so they’re only in daycare about 10 hours a week. As for being Primary care giver I would be at work by school time but do everything at night, go to all parent/teacher conferences and take time off work to take them to doctors and other appointments.
6) I have a number of other concerns with my wife which I can discuss with you, not least she isn’t the most stable personality, is verbally abusive towards my daughter and has attempted suicide at least 3 times that I know of (I have one letter as proof), one day she says she wants me to have the kids another she wants them, etc.
She is planning a trip back to the UK in August to which she has sworn she will return but I don’t trust her. She is not letting me use any of our joint account to pay for legal assistance so I have had to ask parents for help. My sole concern is the kids, if she was the right person to look after them I’d be less scared about them being with her. She has mentioned staying here and says she’s still considering it but is looking at 1 bed places and having the kids at weekends. If she wanted the kids why would she not try to keep them when she was over here too? She has a son from a previous marriage who she left (now she's saying I forced her to leave despite her saying before even if we'd split up she'd still move and was "done with the US") and who despite being in her custody spent 99% of the time with the father. Now she's saying this was due to me being mean to her son although the father and I got on fine and despite us living close by for 6 years and her son being with him nothing was ever mentioned.
Ijust caught her checking the passports, when I questioned what she was doing she said she wanted to see if they were there and didn't trust me. I don't know where she thinks I am taking them, if anyone were a flight risk surely it's her? If, say, one morning the passports were gone what could I do to stop her taking the kids away?
Sorry for the heavy post and thanks for any help.
1) The kids were born in the US and have US birth certificates and social security numbers
2) We have been back here less than a year and she is going to say I forced her to come back
3) The kids are 6 and 3 and most judges give custody to the mother
4) She has been told that the kids’ “habitual residence” is the US based on less than a year here and more time spent there.
5) She is also saying that she will be supported by her family over there so won’t be working and will be at home spending time with the kids.
6) She used to work nights in the US so is saying she's classed as Primary care giver.
I would counter these arguments point by point with the facts that:
1) Although they were born there they have UK passports and citizenship.
2) We have sold the house and moved back, we have taken a 12 month lease on a rental property and the children are in full time education here.
3) I’m not sure but believe (and hope) that this is an out-dated idea, I could be wrong.
4) I have read that there is no set definition re “habitual residence” but think the fact that we moved here and kids study here counts for something. I have a letter from when we first moved here with her permission to move here and the visa process was going on for a year or more so me forcing her is clearly a lie.
5) From Sept the kids are both in full time education, I work 9 to 5 and my Mum takes care of them sometimes so they’re only in daycare about 10 hours a week. As for being Primary care giver I would be at work by school time but do everything at night, go to all parent/teacher conferences and take time off work to take them to doctors and other appointments.
6) I have a number of other concerns with my wife which I can discuss with you, not least she isn’t the most stable personality, is verbally abusive towards my daughter and has attempted suicide at least 3 times that I know of (I have one letter as proof), one day she says she wants me to have the kids another she wants them, etc.
She is planning a trip back to the UK in August to which she has sworn she will return but I don’t trust her. She is not letting me use any of our joint account to pay for legal assistance so I have had to ask parents for help. My sole concern is the kids, if she was the right person to look after them I’d be less scared about them being with her. She has mentioned staying here and says she’s still considering it but is looking at 1 bed places and having the kids at weekends. If she wanted the kids why would she not try to keep them when she was over here too? She has a son from a previous marriage who she left (now she's saying I forced her to leave despite her saying before even if we'd split up she'd still move and was "done with the US") and who despite being in her custody spent 99% of the time with the father. Now she's saying this was due to me being mean to her son although the father and I got on fine and despite us living close by for 6 years and her son being with him nothing was ever mentioned.
Ijust caught her checking the passports, when I questioned what she was doing she said she wanted to see if they were there and didn't trust me. I don't know where she thinks I am taking them, if anyone were a flight risk surely it's her? If, say, one morning the passports were gone what could I do to stop her taking the kids away?
Sorry for the heavy post and thanks for any help.
Last edited by Pauljarv; Mar 16th 2011 at 11:30 am.
Mar 16th 2011, 12:00 pm
#2
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Posts: 681
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
phew, it sounds as if you need legal advice, can you access citizens advice bureau? As for passports, wont she need your permission to take the children overseas?
I am sorry for the circumstances you are in, and hope you can get it sorted out.
I am sorry for the circumstances you are in, and hope you can get it sorted out.
Mar 16th 2011, 12:22 pm
#3
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
That is what I thought although twice now she's written letters enabling me to take kids overseas on holiday and nobody has asked to see it. I imagine she could turn up with her US passport and the kids each with US passports (they have both) and stroll straight through.
Maybe there's somewhere I can contact to put them on a flight risk list?
I will be getting legal advice though. The whole mother = best thing enrages me. She has been a Mum to three kids and short of being a clean freak and cooking some meals she hasn't a motherly bone in her body. I'm sure she loves the kids dearly but not once has she helped with schoolwork, never taken them to the park, never reads them a book at night. I do all of that plus get the kids dressed in the morning, make breakfast, clean their teeth, walk the dog, etc while she spends 2 hours getting ready but it could count for nothing. It'll be my word against hers.
I'll add that my Mum actually had a talk to my daughter as, lets count, her neighbour, our childminder, a school friend's Mum, a teacher and my sister-in-law have all come to her worried after my daughter told them how her mother treated her, screaming at her, shutting her in her room, etc. She told her not to tell stories to people as they'll think badly of her Mum!
Sorry to vent.
Maybe there's somewhere I can contact to put them on a flight risk list?
I will be getting legal advice though. The whole mother = best thing enrages me. She has been a Mum to three kids and short of being a clean freak and cooking some meals she hasn't a motherly bone in her body. I'm sure she loves the kids dearly but not once has she helped with schoolwork, never taken them to the park, never reads them a book at night. I do all of that plus get the kids dressed in the morning, make breakfast, clean their teeth, walk the dog, etc while she spends 2 hours getting ready but it could count for nothing. It'll be my word against hers.
I'll add that my Mum actually had a talk to my daughter as, lets count, her neighbour, our childminder, a school friend's Mum, a teacher and my sister-in-law have all come to her worried after my daughter told them how her mother treated her, screaming at her, shutting her in her room, etc. She told her not to tell stories to people as they'll think badly of her Mum!
Sorry to vent.
Mar 16th 2011, 1:57 pm
#4
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Hide the passports.
Mar 16th 2011, 3:59 pm
#5
The Kwisatz Haderach
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: North Wales
Posts: 8,080
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Agreed, stash them in another location, maybe your parents home. There is also someone on here who used to work in someway related to child custody disputes internationally or something similar. Hopefully she/he will be along. There is a way to flag the childrens passports so she can't use any of them to leave the country. I think that they posted something last time you were asking. Maybe if you can find your old post it may be one of the answers you never checked on.
You really do need a good family/divorce/custody solicitor.
Found it it's lansbury
I'd do what he suggests to make sure the kids aren't removed before you sort out the divorce.
You really do need a good family/divorce/custody solicitor.
Found it it's lansbury
I'd do what he suggests to make sure the kids aren't removed before you sort out the divorce.
That would be me. 
Go to the ReUnite web site pick one of their recommended solicitors and get professional advice as soon as you can.
If she takes the children and makes a bolt for an airport to leave. Go IMMEDIATELY to the nearest police station and make an allegation of child abduction under Section 1 Child Abduction Act. If you get the run around at the police station insist they call the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorist Command National Ports Office on 020 7230 4800 and get advice. If they will not so that, do not leave the police station, call the National Ports Office yourself.
I worked in the NPO as a controller and they are the experts and will make sure things are done properly. Basically your local police should complete a crime report and ask the NPO to put out an allports warning for the children to be prevented from leaving the UK. It helps if you have travel details but if not the route(s) you normally travel to/from the US and UK help.
But first steps first. Get advice and help from a solicitor on ReUnite's list.
Under English/Welsh law she cannot remove the children from the jurisdiction without your consent. She must have your consent or a court order to do so. The law in Scotland differs slightly in that you must have a court order to prevent removal, but that is a more formal way of indication that you haven't consented to the children being removed from Scotland.
Go to the ReUnite web site pick one of their recommended solicitors and get professional advice as soon as you can.
If she takes the children and makes a bolt for an airport to leave. Go IMMEDIATELY to the nearest police station and make an allegation of child abduction under Section 1 Child Abduction Act. If you get the run around at the police station insist they call the Metropolitan Police Counter Terrorist Command National Ports Office on 020 7230 4800 and get advice. If they will not so that, do not leave the police station, call the National Ports Office yourself.
I worked in the NPO as a controller and they are the experts and will make sure things are done properly. Basically your local police should complete a crime report and ask the NPO to put out an allports warning for the children to be prevented from leaving the UK. It helps if you have travel details but if not the route(s) you normally travel to/from the US and UK help.
But first steps first. Get advice and help from a solicitor on ReUnite's list.
Under English/Welsh law she cannot remove the children from the jurisdiction without your consent. She must have your consent or a court order to do so. The law in Scotland differs slightly in that you must have a court order to prevent removal, but that is a more formal way of indication that you haven't consented to the children being removed from Scotland.
Last edited by Mummy in the foothills; Mar 16th 2011 at 4:04 pm.
Mar 16th 2011, 6:21 pm
#6
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Have emailed the reunite place especially since last night she has stashed their US passports.
Mar 16th 2011, 6:31 pm
#7
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Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Posts: 2,060
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I know I have posted along these lines a couple of times but things between my wife and me are reaching breaking point. If anyone could give me some guidance that would be helpful. In summary my wife has moved over here and amongst other issues hasn’t settled well and is considering moving back to the US and taking the kids with her. She works as a legal secretary and has, it transpires, had some advice. She believes that her case is pretty strong based on the following points:
1) The kids were born in the US and have US birth certificates and social security numbers
2) We have been back here less than a year and she is going to say I forced her to come back
3) The kids are 6 and 3 and most judges give custody to the mother
4) She has been told that the kids’ “habitual residence” is the US based on less than a year here and more time spent there.
5) She is also saying that she will be supported by her family over there so won’t be working and will be at home spending time with the kids.
6) She used to work nights in the US so is saying she's classed as Primary care giver.
I would counter these arguments point by point with the facts that:
1) Although they were born there they have UK passports and citizenship.
2) We have sold the house and moved back, we have taken a 12 month lease on a rental property and the children are in full time education here.
3) I’m not sure but believe (and hope) that this is an out-dated idea, I could be wrong.
4) I have read that there is no set definition re “habitual residence” but think the fact that we moved here and kids study here counts for something. I have a letter from when we first moved here with her permission to move here and the visa process was going on for a year or more so me forcing her is clearly a lie.
5) From Sept the kids are both in full time education, I work 9 to 5 and my Mum takes care of them sometimes so they’re only in daycare about 10 hours a week. As for being Primary care giver I would be at work by school time but do everything at night, go to all parent/teacher conferences and take time off work to take them to doctors and other appointments.
6) I have a number of other concerns with my wife which I can discuss with you, not least she isn’t the most stable personality, is verbally abusive towards my daughter and has attempted suicide at least 3 times that I know of (I have one letter as proof), one day she says she wants me to have the kids another she wants them, etc.
She is planning a trip back to the UK in August to which she has sworn she will return but I don’t trust her. She is not letting me use any of our joint account to pay for legal assistance so I have had to ask parents for help. My sole concern is the kids, if she was the right person to look after them I’d be less scared about them being with her. She has mentioned staying here and says she’s still considering it but is looking at 1 bed places and having the kids at weekends. If she wanted the kids why would she not try to keep them when she was over here too? She has a son from a previous marriage who she left (now she's saying I forced her to leave despite her saying before even if we'd split up she'd still move and was "done with the US") and who despite being in her custody spent 99% of the time with the father. Now she's saying this was due to me being mean to her son although the father and I got on fine and despite us living close by for 6 years and her son being with him nothing was ever mentioned.
Ijust caught her checking the passports, when I questioned what she was doing she said she wanted to see if they were there and didn't trust me. I don't know where she thinks I am taking them, if anyone were a flight risk surely it's her? If, say, one morning the passports were gone what could I do to stop her taking the kids away?
Sorry for the heavy post and thanks for any help.
1) The kids were born in the US and have US birth certificates and social security numbers
2) We have been back here less than a year and she is going to say I forced her to come back
3) The kids are 6 and 3 and most judges give custody to the mother
4) She has been told that the kids’ “habitual residence” is the US based on less than a year here and more time spent there.
5) She is also saying that she will be supported by her family over there so won’t be working and will be at home spending time with the kids.
6) She used to work nights in the US so is saying she's classed as Primary care giver.
I would counter these arguments point by point with the facts that:
1) Although they were born there they have UK passports and citizenship.
2) We have sold the house and moved back, we have taken a 12 month lease on a rental property and the children are in full time education here.
3) I’m not sure but believe (and hope) that this is an out-dated idea, I could be wrong.
4) I have read that there is no set definition re “habitual residence” but think the fact that we moved here and kids study here counts for something. I have a letter from when we first moved here with her permission to move here and the visa process was going on for a year or more so me forcing her is clearly a lie.
5) From Sept the kids are both in full time education, I work 9 to 5 and my Mum takes care of them sometimes so they’re only in daycare about 10 hours a week. As for being Primary care giver I would be at work by school time but do everything at night, go to all parent/teacher conferences and take time off work to take them to doctors and other appointments.
6) I have a number of other concerns with my wife which I can discuss with you, not least she isn’t the most stable personality, is verbally abusive towards my daughter and has attempted suicide at least 3 times that I know of (I have one letter as proof), one day she says she wants me to have the kids another she wants them, etc.
She is planning a trip back to the UK in August to which she has sworn she will return but I don’t trust her. She is not letting me use any of our joint account to pay for legal assistance so I have had to ask parents for help. My sole concern is the kids, if she was the right person to look after them I’d be less scared about them being with her. She has mentioned staying here and says she’s still considering it but is looking at 1 bed places and having the kids at weekends. If she wanted the kids why would she not try to keep them when she was over here too? She has a son from a previous marriage who she left (now she's saying I forced her to leave despite her saying before even if we'd split up she'd still move and was "done with the US") and who despite being in her custody spent 99% of the time with the father. Now she's saying this was due to me being mean to her son although the father and I got on fine and despite us living close by for 6 years and her son being with him nothing was ever mentioned.
Ijust caught her checking the passports, when I questioned what she was doing she said she wanted to see if they were there and didn't trust me. I don't know where she thinks I am taking them, if anyone were a flight risk surely it's her? If, say, one morning the passports were gone what could I do to stop her taking the kids away?
Sorry for the heavy post and thanks for any help.
Are there people you have spoken to as a couple who could be called as witnesses to say that this move was just as much her idea, e.e school registration, visa process, neighbours, etc.
Is there pro-active action you can take if you believe her to be a flight risk with the children. Isn't this kidnapping? Yes, hide the children's passports, but let her have hers.
You need legal advice. I am only guessing at how it would be.
Good luck.
Mar 16th 2011, 6:36 pm
#8
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I'll add that my Mum actually had a talk to my daughter as, lets count, her neighbour, our childminder, a school friend's Mum, a teacher and my sister-in-law have all come to her worried after my daughter told them how her mother treated her, screaming at her, shutting her in her room, etc. She told her not to tell stories to people as they'll think badly of her Mum!
Sorry to vent.
Sorry to vent.
Mar 16th 2011, 6:55 pm
#9
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Agreed, I wasn't that happy with my Mum for saying that. She had exagerrated by saying that her Mum locked her in her room which isn't possible but is treated badly.
Trouble is she's not stupid and cannot see how she's doing anything wrong. Any extreme act by her, depression, yelling at kids is caused by the stress of the situation I've put her in apparently.
Trouble is she's not stupid and cannot see how she's doing anything wrong. Any extreme act by her, depression, yelling at kids is caused by the stress of the situation I've put her in apparently.
Mar 18th 2011, 1:36 am
#10
Back from India
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 793
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
"She is not letting me use any of our joint account to pay for legal assistance so I have had to ask parents for help."
If it is a joint account how can she stop you?
start getting assertive but put the kids needs first in all this
If it is a joint account how can she stop you?
start getting assertive but put the kids needs first in all this
Mar 18th 2011, 2:30 am
#11
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I do get your point but I can see hers too, if we couldn't afford our rent because I'd paid out a chunk ostensibly to get her out of the house she may be entitled to be annoyed.
I have delayed things because firstly she was letting me have the kids while staying in the UK and didn't want to put her spousal visa at risk. Meanwhile she's seen someone,thinks she's got a cast iron case and changes her mind so I am putting kids then myself first now.
I have delayed things because firstly she was letting me have the kids while staying in the UK and didn't want to put her spousal visa at risk. Meanwhile she's seen someone,thinks she's got a cast iron case and changes her mind so I am putting kids then myself first now.
Mar 18th 2011, 4:33 am
#12
Back from India
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 793
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
"She told her not to tell stories to people as they'll think badly of her Mum!"
That is very dangerous and puts your child/ren at risk of harm as she/they will not tell anyone anything. You should have a chat with your mum and put her right on that . Children telling the truth about horrible things is never easy and should not be made to look like stories..( unless it is known to be fabricated but in this case sounds like it is the truth) As said earlier put them first and ensure they are free to tell you what is happening
That is very dangerous and puts your child/ren at risk of harm as she/they will not tell anyone anything. You should have a chat with your mum and put her right on that . Children telling the truth about horrible things is never easy and should not be made to look like stories..( unless it is known to be fabricated but in this case sounds like it is the truth) As said earlier put them first and ensure they are free to tell you what is happening
Mar 18th 2011, 6:00 am
#13
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I would get every incident, issue etc down in writing, with dates, while it's still clear in your head.
Definitely take some action regarding the passports - whether that is having them 'flagged' so she cannot leave the country with them, or my gut feeling is that I would report the passports stolen since you don't know where they are - but I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to do.
My husband has custody of my stepdaughter so there are some judges who show common sense and look at who has provided most of the care and dealt with the child's day to day well-being. His ex-wife did leave the family home and leave her daughter behind before changing her mind and going for custody but even so, I think he would have had a strong case. I'm not quite clear where you are (UK or US) but if it's the UK then CAFCASS and judges in custody hearings strongly favour leaving children where they are and preserving the status quo if they are happy and settled unless there is a compelling reason to take them away from that.
Definitely take some action regarding the passports - whether that is having them 'flagged' so she cannot leave the country with them, or my gut feeling is that I would report the passports stolen since you don't know where they are - but I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to do.
My husband has custody of my stepdaughter so there are some judges who show common sense and look at who has provided most of the care and dealt with the child's day to day well-being. His ex-wife did leave the family home and leave her daughter behind before changing her mind and going for custody but even so, I think he would have had a strong case. I'm not quite clear where you are (UK or US) but if it's the UK then CAFCASS and judges in custody hearings strongly favour leaving children where they are and preserving the status quo if they are happy and settled unless there is a compelling reason to take them away from that.
Mar 18th 2011, 1:15 pm
#14
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,649
Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
Definitely take some action regarding the passports - whether that is having them 'flagged' so she cannot leave the country with them, or my gut feeling is that I would report the passports stolen since you don't know where they are - but I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to do.
http://travel.state.gov/abduction/pr...uance_554.html
United Kingdom:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...ild-abduction/
Mar 18th 2011, 3:08 pm
#15
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Re: UK/US Divorce & Child Custody
I can't find another way to put this so it won't sound like giving advice so I will go ahead and say it. Don't put yourself in the position of taking no action until it is too late and then wishing you had.
Having said that. I don't believe it is our place to give advice. You must chose for yourself. Try and chose wisely.
Having said that. I don't believe it is our place to give advice. You must chose for yourself. Try and chose wisely.
