C.2s

Hi all,

We're UK citizens who are resident (but not citizens in Italy). And we were here preBrexit so we have protected treaty rights to stay here. After several years of living abroad we realise that there are things we miss about the UK. I won't list them all but they are mainly social stuff like theatre and quiz nights and various clubs and societies, etc. So we're considering trying the option of spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in Italy. Not exactly a "holiday home" but a 50/50 split.

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In addition we have been having problems registering for healthcare and paying taxes here in Italy. It's a bit ludicrous, but in fact we've not paid a penny in tax in Italy despite repeatedly declaring our income, and we've kept paying taxes in the UK. And now the Italian health service are arguing about our right to enter the health service here because they say we are 'outside EU'. We may perhaps overcome this problem but it's very frustrating and makes us feel unwelcome here, and even if they do eventually accept this we'd have to pay €2000 a year. And private health insurance isn't really a viable option because of preexisting health conditions that we'll probably need treatment for, but the insurance will exclude those conditions.

Therefore we're wondering about renting in the UK and registering with the NHS : we feel this is 'reasonable' considering we pay taxes there and would have a home there. And we have things like UK bank accounts etc so certain aspects of doing this would be simpler for us than for those people who have cut all ties with the UK.

But we'd like to keep the option of Italian residency because we aren't certain what we want to do in the future. And so we'd have Italian registered vehicles and Italian driving licence etc. And we have an Italian bank account. We know that in theory we have to stay in Italy for 6 months of every year or we lose residency. I say "in theory" because of course it's possible to travel within the EU without internal passport checks, so we could actually be in another EU country and the Italian authorities wouldn't know. I don't see how the Italian authorities wouldn't really know what we're doing in terms of renting in the UK/registering with the NHS. But I am not trying to deliberately mislead them either. We try to do everything properly but it's difficult here...As I said we've been trying to pay tax for five years and they just keep waiving us away.. maybe in time we would re-register everything officially... once we see if living this way works for us or not.
Has anybody else done this or considered doing it (not just Italy but from any other country), and what potential problems might there be?

philat98

People must travel with the WA card even when they are no longer residents. When does your card expire? It may be a problem when you try to renew the WA card at the Questura as you will have to show a valid ID card.

C.2s

I don't believe that's true. The "WA card", or Carta di Soggiorno, isn't obligatory in Italy. Therefore we don't have one. We have the standard Carta D'identità (plastic card with id photo and they have a copy of fingerprints which is issued through the comune). In fact my wife recently got a new one because her previous one was stolen. No issues with getting a WA card in order to stay resident. You say people must travel with the WA card even if they are not resident, but how can you even get a WA card if you are not resident? It relates to rights that are for residents doesn't it?

We've travelled in and out of the EU without a problem using our UK passports. We do have the letter that relates to the WA agreement from our comune, but nobody has ever asked for that. But in any case I am not suggesting that we deregister with the comune. We will continue to spend more than 90 days a year in Italy (as we do now). Once the new electronic passport control system comes in (last I read it is being delayed again) then I can see that Italy would be able to access the information about the amount of time we spend outside the EU (but not the time we spend in other EU countries since there are no border checks). Italian law says we'd lose our WA rights if we stay outside of Italy for more than 6 months... but we don't intend to do that. So I don't see an issue.

AFAIK we can spend as little or as much time in the UK as we like because we're UK citizens and the amount of time one spends in the UK doesn't seem to have any impact on registering with the NHS . For example, a UK citizen might go on holiday to Australia or Japan or somewhere for a few months, and be out of the country for more than 6 months but they'd still be considered resident as far as I can see.

As for the 90 in 180 rules about visiting the EU , well we'd also be within that wouldn't we? Not that I anticipate that being an issue but if a border guard insisted that we can only stay in the EU for 90 days we'd be able to confirm that is the intention.
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Dizzyp

We’re in a similar situation except we’re in the Netherlands. Been here 10 years and now retired and would like to spend 4 or 5 months a year in Scotland. We also miss the culture side of things such as theatre. We have a permanent residency card issued under Article 50. We show that with our UK passport when we enter the EU from the UK. Then our passport is not stamped. We usually go through the EU passport channels because of our residency card. Do you have such a thing?

We pay for the Dutch equivalent of the NHS, about €250 a month for both of us with a co pay of €385 each. If we spent time in the UK, we’d still have to keep that running as it’s linked to residency. We have another 5 years before we can apply for a Dutch passport without losing our UK citizenships. Then we can live anywhere in Europe.

Tax wise we pay tax to the Dutch on all our worldwide pensions. No tax is deducted by the UK from my husband’s private pension and the State pension . We had to get a form from the Dutch authorities to send to the UK Tax authorities for this to happen.

Have you consulted with an immigration lawyer? It’s worrying that your tax and therefore your health and residency are not secure. There may be some Expat Italian Facebook groups that can shed light on your tax predicament.

If we try out living in the UK for part of the year, we will most likely try AirBnB first for 2 months.

Good luck!

Helen1964

I bet things are supposed to work in Italy pretty much the same way as you say they work in the Netherlands but don’t because, er, it’s Italy. I’m on holiday right now in Liguria and it’s ridiculously beautiful but also a bit shambolic.

The OP says they’ve been resident in Italy since before Brexit. I wonder what they’ve been doing for healthcare all that time.

C.2s

Thanks to dizzyp and Helen1964 for your comments.

​​​​​We had health cover, after quite a lot of arguments, and we were issued a card which was valid for five years (according to the expiry date on the card). Then one day my doctor said "You do realise that your health cover has expired?" ... lots of conversations later we discovered there's a bit of small print in the law that says foreigners have to renew every year. It's one of those things that apparently "everyone knows". So we have since been trying to re-register and keep being told we're "outside EU". It seems that we might be able to get cover if we pay to enter the system...but as Helen said, it's Italy and therefore nobody will actually state that 100%. They want us to pay and see what happens.

It does relate to the tax situation in a way. We've repeatedly declared our income, which is my wife's private pension and my earnings from working online. The tax authorities keep saying that the tax on the pension must be paid in the UK. I guess it's possible that the bilateral tax agreement between the UK and Italy is different to that between the UK and the Netherlands. Because I earn money from all over the world they just shrug their shoulders and say it's not earnt in Italy. I don't feel comfortable with this. As dizzy says it would probably be a good idea to seek advice... I'm not sure if an immigration lawyer can help because it's tax, not law Trying to get anywhere through legal means in Italy is often pointless, and now, having tried for five years , and having got nowhere , and already thinking about a partial move back to the UK I think that I would probably rather give up and just make the UK our main residence... and use Italy as a holiday home. Obviously that would have implications in terms of things like driving licences and some local taxes etc.

​​​​​​The points about the ID cards for residency are the same as that made by philat. Each country has applied the WA in different ways. In Italy the card isn't obligatory. Therefore no border guard can actually insist that it's shown when you enter the EU (of course they don't know what they're doing and even people who have shown the card are having their passports stamped...it happened to my friend last week). We've crossed the border many times and we just explain the situation and show our Italian documents and everything has been okay thus far

Helen1964

Thanks for clarifying that.
It sounds to me like making the UK your base and spending lots of time in Italy is a good plan.
If, like me, you’re the sort of person who likes to play things by the book. I have an English friend living here in Italy and she’s absolutely flourishing but she’s the sort of person who was always a tad chaotic herself and doesn’t mind it in others.

After many years in France, we’re thinking of doing something similar to what you suggest. I have an Irish passport (as well as a British one) so, as a married couple and provided we travel and stay together, we wouldn’t be subject to the 90 day rule. But even if we were, that wouldn’t be disastrous.

I don’t suppose there’s any way you could get Italian citizenship before you moved your base to the UK? In case you wanted to try out life in another EU country at some point?

I wonder are there any other nice Mediterranean countries out there where admin is straightforward and things work as they’re supposed to. Sort of like Holland but sunnier.
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Helen1964

On the subject of driving licences, just thought of something else.
Am pretty sure you’re already aware of this but just in case you’re not…. if you moved your base to the UK and, as part of that process, swapped your Italian licence for a UK one, and then, after a few years, decided you wanted to move to, say, Spain, you might find yourself having to sit a Spanish driving test. Because of course not all EU countries let you drive around for years on a UK licence or provide for the possibility of exchanging it for a local one.

philat98

Malta has pubs, Marks and Spencer, WH Smiths and Dorothy Perkin. The weather is the same as southern Italy and you dont need a car. Not sure what the admin is like.

Helen1964

Yes, Malta would be the obvious choice but I’m afraid it’s a bit too small and congested for us. Husband is a really keen cyclist and he’d go nuts.

How do you manage in Italy? Are you happy there?

Incidentally, I think I might be wrong about not being able to drive on a UK licence while resident in Spain or swap it for a Spanish one. It looks like new procedures are springing up all the time.

Moses2013

I suppose you missed the word nice and I doubt admin will ever be a joy
From other thread
https://www.maltatoday.com.mt/news/n...t#.ZFjcI3bMJPY
I think I'd prefer Illa de Arousa in Spain which is like a smaller version of Île de Ré in France, at least there's a bridge to escape:-)

philat98

I like the way of life in Italy. I dont have any wish to go back to the UK. I became an Italian citizen so I dont have C2s's admin troubles. In my view the positives far outweigh the negatives.

C.2s

Well, the cycling here is excellent if you don't like the flat, so your husband would probably be happy. (Obviously I don't mean in terms of cycle paths etc.) That's why we might end up in Scotland or somewhere like the Peak District

But I know that wasn't what you were asking philat. ;-)

I don't think find the thought of pubs and Marks & Spencer as appealing... nowhere is paradise

Helen1964

Ha! My husband (who’s, most embarrassingly, Russian) was just coming down the mountain today in Finalborgo and ran into a group of British cyclists. He asked them where he should move to in the UK for cycling and they said Edinburgh or the Peak District.

I suppose in order to apply for Italian citizenship, you’d need to be able to show that you’d been paying tax in Italy and had healthcare cover?

philat98

You have to show a history of tax payments on or above a minimum income. There is a language test that is also challenging.