Giantaxe

Allen, where did you just move back from?

AllenSmith81

I moved from England to Scotland in 1994.

Thanks

Allen

Giantaxe

Ok, odd that you'd want to sign up and make a first post in a "moving back to the UK" forum...

AllenSmith81

Because this is where the discussion about Scottish independence is being held.

Full up disclosure: I am a member of the SNP, A member of the Dundee Activist Team and also Dundee15 is my mother.

Just so no one feels I am hiding anything.

not2old

no issues with anything that you have put in your posts 45, 47 & 49 & since the responses in this thread [I'm guessing] are from mainly English folks (add to that the Londoners & toffs) its quite clear from your posts that independence is something a true Scot like yourself & your mother wants (that opinion I respect) - that it wants 'freedom' - but freedom from what? With that freedom, how will it survive long term is something I cannot come to grips with

The heart & the mind of independence are two different things. 'Sometimes you just have to go with the flow & don't bite the hand that feeds you'... for now at least.

Is Scotland long term sustainability doable without a big brother or sister?

Is this Scottish independence based solely on believing 'we can sustain because we have the oil' which as you know will not last forever, that it doesn't belong to Scotland or at least the controlled interest is not Scottish nor is the corporate industry Scottish.

The points of the OP about Trident, farming & manufacturing is small talk IMO, money & sustainability rules the economy, not the politicians.

Surgeon did well booting out Labour, the cons or libs were no competition, then again - do the cons have any interest in Scotland other than its a pain in the backside whinging bunch of kilts?

In past threads there was a whole debate on BE around the time of the referendum of the pro's & cons of Scottish independence, non of which really matters to the reality of it, mainly because as expats, most BE members I understand do not live in the UK & are merely armchair critics.

Of course when a Scottish nationalist comes on board the English & Welsh may well seize the opportunity to poke at it the way this thread has done to the OP, some serious discussion others just taking the mickey.

Will there be another referendum on Scotland & if so, what will the outcome likely be? I don't think Westminster nor Sturgeon want another one, at least not till after the next general election.

Taking the position that 'I want my cake & eat it too' is all fine when one cannot have that cake - simply going on belly aching 'this that and the other, Westminster, and when Surgeon with her 56 seats starts to speak & demand 'we'll show em in Parliament' .

The issue to that the way that I see it is the 326 or so seats the cons have, add to that Labour who likely won't agree to anything Sturgeon has up her sleeve, can only lead the SNP to a potential embarrassment.

Should Sturgeon try to muscle the Prime Minister, short & sweet in a democratic society the PM with take her aside with a mouthful to remind her who is in control 'Westminster'. For anything the SNP demands in Westminster there will be a vote, as will a sweetening by the cons to quiet down any uprising.

I don't think the cons are too concerned about the SNP demands because the SNP does not speak for the majority in the best interest of the UK people. The SNP is a single small entity that has its hand out 'more sir please, can we have more' - it just ain't going to happen

From my armchair in Canada, with my heritage from my Irish (Mother), Welsh (Father) & with me being born in England, makes me a first generation English person - no Scottish in there as far as I know, yet I am British.

Hazelnut

Thank goodness the referendum result was the sensible one. Leaving the EU and UK and trying to go it alone as a nation when the SNP politicians do nothing but lie would have been a major disaster. Given they said oil revenue would fund many policies and that's less than half what they said it would be we'd be in deep doo doo by now if it had gone yes.

The Neverendum will keep going on until the minority wear the majority out and commit the country to national and economic suicide.

Moses2013

I just think that the whole UK concept is outdated. Either you are one country and share the loaf of bread, or you let each location bake it's own bread. How come Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland have their own national football team, but at the Olympics it's Team GB. In rugby the Irish national team is Rep of Ireland with Northern Ireland (whole island), but at least the Rep of Ireland is independent and we can do our own thing. Just because you are officially a different country, doesn't mean you can't be friends.

AllenSmith81

Hazelnut, if you read the white paper the oil revenues were only allocated to the creation of an oil stabilization fund. Scotland has rich and thriving industries in life sciences, finance, Gaming and industry to name but a few and the value of its economy would be enough to sustain near current spending levels. I am not saying we would not perhaps find it difficult to start with but having control over the economic levers would allow us to shape our economic policy to encourage our industries to thrive. I am not saying everything yes said was 100% accurate but I can assure you there was more lies on the "Better Together" side than on the "Yes" Side. Something the people of scotland are just starting to find out.

If you would like to explore the economic case and proposed expenditure in more detail let me know as I will happily break it down for you or anyone else on this board.

AllenSmith81

Moses2013,

Well put, I do not know many scots who hate any of our neighbors and we would be stupid if we did not look to build equal partnerships across these islands.

To directly address your question about why Scotland, England, Wales and northern Ireland have their own representations in international football games: This dates back the fact that each of the "Home" nations formed their own football associations and when the original international bodies were formed they were formed by the constituent football associations. There have been Team GB football events but they are generally friendlies and I dont think any have been for serious sporting events.

not2old

How and when and on what basis is this possible?

How will Scotland secure its independence from Westminster?

Posting as an Englishman, I would like to see Scotland an independent country within 5 years of when the oil runs out

Dundee15

Scotland will get its independence when the majority of people in Scotland vote for it.

Scotland will secure its independence from Westminster by working towards moving all powers to Scotland and ensuring that it has the support of the majority of Scottish citizens.

So you agree that england would like to see Scotland as an independent country? Oil or not!

Moses2013

Thanks for the explanation I see that it works well in Ireland and we don't hate our neighbours. Some people just don't understand that different locations need to be competitive in different ways.

Moses2013

The thing is that Scotland would be a lot more attractive for business if they could set their own taxes, laws and regulations. It's not only Oil, but agriculture, forestry, alternative energy, IT industry etc. Scotland is a very attractive place with fresh air, culture etc. but not enough investment to create jobs that are well paid.

AllenSmith81

Not2Old,

I am going to attempt to answer each point you have made.

Yes the heart and mind are two very different instruments. One is a logical thought out assessment of the facts of a situation or event while the heart allows us to follow ideals and take leaps of faith. Sometimes for the good and sometimes not. Of course the reality of this is that most people make decisions based on a mixture of the two and thats the basis for my position on independence. There are risks associated with independence but I believe that the people of scotland are best served by people who live here in Scotland and if we fail then its our failure and we have to learn from it and build a stronger nation as a result. Lets take Canada for a second, how would you feel if someone dissolved the Canadian government and said you would now be ruled by Westminster. I doubt that would be acceptable to many, if any, of your countrymen / women. You go with the flow when the flow makes sense and is going in the direction you want to be heading otherwise your just a mug along for the ride. Scotland as a country, ignoring oil revenues, contributes the same level of taxation to the UK exchequer as England per head of population does and including oil revenues pays £1200 more per person in taxation in each of the last 10 years (this year will be less due to the drop in the value of oil). Now if we were an independent nation we would would not be renewing trident saving Scotland's share of £100bn immediately there would also be opportunities for us to do things differently which would save us more money and would likely end up with scotland being richer per head of population than we are currently in the UK. All that said I contest that the UK is "Feeding us".

I think this whole issue is a propaganda point by "Better together", lets look at countries who are the same size as Scotland:

113 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark 5,668,743 April 1, 2015 0.078% Quarterly official estimate 114 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland 5,478,002 April 15, 2015 0.076% Official population clock 115 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore 5,469,700 July 1, 2014 0.075% Official estimate
In total there are more countries smaller than Scotland in the world than there are larger (133 below where Scotland would sit in population count). Many of them as successful or more successful than the UK so could we do it, yes... is it sustainable.. of course it is.

Not really sure what your point here is. 93% of active oil and gas wells in the UK sit within what would be considered Scottish territorial waters under international law if we were an independent nation making those resources Scottish and the industries behind them Scottish. The largest fuel refinery in the UK is in Grangemouth, in Scotland. Are we dependent on the success of oil, no we arent but to ignore the potential return oil could bring to the scottish economy would be stupid. No other country in the world views oil as a hindrance to their continue prosperity. Scotland also has the largest potential for renewable energy of anywhere else in Europe and independence would allow us to grow that industry for future generations.

you are of course right that people who are not in the UK or Scotland are armchair critics but I am a democrat at heart and I am happy to debate any topic where there is considerable time and thought put into an argument with anyone.

Yes I believe there will be but the outcome will be up to the Scottish people and the onus is on both sides of the debate to put their arguments and the calm, cool and considered voice of the Scottish people will be heard. Does that end the debate, no of course not as the essence of free speech is that anyone who feels a given way about a topic should be free to express that topic and this is a concept I support. The timing of the next referendum will be upto the scottish people and as I see it something will need to change (i.e. Scotland being dragged out of Europe against its will) for the next referendum or a significant shift in public opinion. I have to say since the GE the UK government are not doing well on listening to the clear concerns of the Scottish people and may well end up pushing us out anyway.

As stated above, to ignore the will of over 50% of the Scottish electorate who voted SNP would be united kingdom suicide and would simply expedite the break up of the UK so they want to be careful on that point. I am not saying we get everything we want but there needs to be some meaningful nod to the political reality in Scotland.

AllenSmith81

Agreed Moses2013