Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
Feb 25th 2008, 7:23 pm
#16
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
I can only go on my own experience (which is limited to mostly the Southeast USA, which is a little different). They turn up (on time), say Sir and Ma'am, hand in their assignments on time, and if they fail usually recognize that it was their own fault.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely had my "problem children" in the US, but they were few and far between.
Perhaps it's an age thing. In the US, being 50 didn't seem to create a gap between the students and myself. Here, I definitely feel like I'm viewed as a bit of an old fogey. And subsequently, I'm starting to FEEL like a bit of an old fogey.
Obviously, the US is a big place and I'm sure there are plenty of bad students somewhere in the US, it's just I didn't see many of them (and I wasn't at an Ivy league school or anything).
Don't get me wrong, I definitely had my "problem children" in the US, but they were few and far between.
Perhaps it's an age thing. In the US, being 50 didn't seem to create a gap between the students and myself. Here, I definitely feel like I'm viewed as a bit of an old fogey. And subsequently, I'm starting to FEEL like a bit of an old fogey.
Obviously, the US is a big place and I'm sure there are plenty of bad students somewhere in the US, it's just I didn't see many of them (and I wasn't at an Ivy league school or anything).
Now, there was a difference in attitude between us older students and the younger ones in general. Not to say that some of them were not working hard and wanting good grades, but there was a distinct lack of effort, especially from the young males when it came to work. Most noticeable in group work, they for some odd reason thought that us older students would do most of the work and quite expected that of us. Behaving badly wasn't really an issue, just pure laziness, as these young males knew that they were going to get hired without a problem, and why should they bother their asses to work for a degree that they were going to get with minimal effort.
So, I did not come across the poor behaviour that you are talking of, just pure and simple laziness. But, that may be inherent in the society where I live, where schools will hire ANY young guy to teach as they think it is a great asset to the schools. In my opinion, the majority of males in my program were lazy little f@#*s to say the least................
Feb 25th 2008, 7:28 pm
#17
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
By the way, I realize I sound like I am just bitching and moaning and yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. I've just lost the hitch in my giddyup lately and I have to let off steam somehow.
I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things sooner or later, I just don't like the way I feel about teaching right now. Last time I felt this way was when I was on teaching practice as a novice student in the late 70's and some of the kids I had to teach were right b*st*rds.
And Grayling, I hear what you say about students wanting to succeed and I know that some (many) of them face huge pressures and mental health problems. It's been quite an eye-opener to see the number of my teaching colleagues who are also under heaps of stress and suffering mental health problems.
I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things sooner or later, I just don't like the way I feel about teaching right now. Last time I felt this way was when I was on teaching practice as a novice student in the late 70's and some of the kids I had to teach were right b*st*rds.
And Grayling, I hear what you say about students wanting to succeed and I know that some (many) of them face huge pressures and mental health problems. It's been quite an eye-opener to see the number of my teaching colleagues who are also under heaps of stress and suffering mental health problems.
Feb 25th 2008, 7:33 pm
#18
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
In my past life I also saw many of them professionally as well......but that is not unique to the UK.
G
Feb 25th 2008, 7:45 pm
#19
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Feb 26th 2008, 12:14 pm
#20
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
I am a final year student at Uni, (mature student) and have never come across this sort of behavior in five years, though i think our lecturers would have kicked out such students from the class and refused to let them back in. However, my wife is also a student at another Uni in the city (ex poly) and she complains about this sort of thing a lot. I couldnt figure out why the difference but then when i met some of the "students" from her class i could see the issue. The reality is that there are a lot of students who should not be there. They dont have the ability and are only there because these days all parents expect their children to go to Uni
Feb 26th 2008, 1:33 pm
#21
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
By the way, I realize I sound like I am just bitching and moaning and yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. I've just lost the hitch in my giddyup lately and I have to let off steam somehow.
I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things sooner or later, I just don't like the way I feel about teaching right now. Last time I felt this way was when I was on teaching practice as a novice student in the late 70's and some of the kids I had to teach were right b*st*rds.
And Grayling, I hear what you say about students wanting to succeed and I know that some (many) of them face huge pressures and mental health problems. It's been quite an eye-opener to see the number of my teaching colleagues who are also under heaps of stress and suffering mental health problems.
I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things sooner or later, I just don't like the way I feel about teaching right now. Last time I felt this way was when I was on teaching practice as a novice student in the late 70's and some of the kids I had to teach were right b*st*rds.
And Grayling, I hear what you say about students wanting to succeed and I know that some (many) of them face huge pressures and mental health problems. It's been quite an eye-opener to see the number of my teaching colleagues who are also under heaps of stress and suffering mental health problems.
My daughter is a freshman here in PA and all her old classmates from school in the UK are now also in their first year at UK Uni.
She notices a difference in attitude and is amazed that they want to behave the way they do.
Some of the things you have described are things that they have told her they do...and think are funny.... like making phone calls in class.
Perhaps it may be to do with cost. She knows how much we are paying and how hard it is and so she wants to do well.
But both of my older daughters noticed it at high school level as well. Here the vast majority are very well motivated and wouldn't dream of messing around and that was a very different attitude to their UK schools.
The teenagers I meet here are much more confident and well informed.
The down side is ..I quite like a bit of spirit and I sometimes feel some of the US teens are very middle aged already.
Disclaimer......I am only comparing my areas here and in the UK and my children and their friends back home so I know it is hardly an international study.
Feb 27th 2008, 1:12 am
#22
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
Ironically, I was in Wales for 6 months and although it didn't work out great for other reasons (mostly salary way too low), the students there were not too bad. It was an allied health department (nurses, speech and language therapy, social work), and many of the students were nontraditional (older, in full-time or P-T employment).
I think part of it may be that Scottish students are a year younger, and so are just lacking in maturity.
I think part of it may be that Scottish students are a year younger, and so are just lacking in maturity.
Mar 2nd 2008, 2:09 am
#23
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
I'm sure everywhere has it's good and bad and perhaps you're experiencing the bad.....however...
My daughter is a freshman here in PA and all her old classmates from school in the UK are now also in their first year at UK Uni.
She notices a difference in attitude and is amazed that they want to behave the way they do.
Some of the things you have described are things that they have told her they do...and think are funny.... like making phone calls in class.
Perhaps it may be to do with cost. She knows how much we are paying and how hard it is and so she wants to do well.
But both of my older daughters noticed it at high school level as well. Here the vast majority are very well motivated and wouldn't dream of messing around and that was a very different attitude to their UK schools.
The teenagers I meet here are much more confident and well informed.
The down side is ..I quite like a bit of spirit and I sometimes feel some of the US teens are very middle aged already.
Disclaimer......I am only comparing my areas here and in the UK and my children and their friends back home so I know it is hardly an international study.
My daughter is a freshman here in PA and all her old classmates from school in the UK are now also in their first year at UK Uni.
She notices a difference in attitude and is amazed that they want to behave the way they do.
Some of the things you have described are things that they have told her they do...and think are funny.... like making phone calls in class.
Perhaps it may be to do with cost. She knows how much we are paying and how hard it is and so she wants to do well.
But both of my older daughters noticed it at high school level as well. Here the vast majority are very well motivated and wouldn't dream of messing around and that was a very different attitude to their UK schools.
The teenagers I meet here are much more confident and well informed.
The down side is ..I quite like a bit of spirit and I sometimes feel some of the US teens are very middle aged already.
Disclaimer......I am only comparing my areas here and in the UK and my children and their friends back home so I know it is hardly an international study.I have only taught in US colleges and I must say the two I have taught in I have generally had very well behaved students with the majority wanting to learn and do better for themselves. Very much how Dunroving describes them - like to laugh and have fun but don't disrespect the teacher no matter how bored the student is.
some of the differences, Dunroving, could have to do with the general attitude of the two countries - there is very much this idea that a college education is the most important thing to a person in the US. That you cannot be successful without one. That attending college shows your desire to learn and do better for yourself. And having 50, 60, 70, even 80 year olds attending university lectures is a common sight on a US campus where we are. And these people already have advanced degrees.
Mar 2nd 2008, 3:43 am
#24
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
The points made by those with students in the Canadian and American systems are spot on:
we pay a hell of a lot of money for university
if a kid drops out, they know they have very little career future.
IIRC in Scotland the first degree is free, and there are still jobs available for those who do not go to university. Unions and strong trade guilds/associations are still very prominent in the UK and practically non-existent in the US.
Most American students who failed out of university would also have to go home and live with mom and dad.... that was incentive enough for me to hit the books!
But the one main cultural difference is that British kids simply don't unconditionally respect their elders. I was assisting in my second grader (aged eight)'s class in PE and the coach is probably about 60 and spry. The kids obeyed both the coach and myself, making eye contact to check that they had done things correctly. My high schooler stands up for the teacher if one of her fellow students gets a bit uppity. There's still plenty of room for play and creativity; the teachers aren't ogres. But they do demand respect and the parents back them.
Yes, there are disrepectful American teens, but just not in the numbers and outright disobedience that I've seen in many British teens.
For example: a rule in a uni classroom could be that the mobiles stay in pockets/rucksacks in class, turned off. If a mobile rings, or worse, someone carries on a conversation -- instant dismissal from the classroom and demerits/bad marks. This is fully possible in the US. Would it be possible in the UK?
we pay a hell of a lot of money for university
if a kid drops out, they know they have very little career future.
IIRC in Scotland the first degree is free, and there are still jobs available for those who do not go to university. Unions and strong trade guilds/associations are still very prominent in the UK and practically non-existent in the US.
Most American students who failed out of university would also have to go home and live with mom and dad.... that was incentive enough for me to hit the books!
But the one main cultural difference is that British kids simply don't unconditionally respect their elders. I was assisting in my second grader (aged eight)'s class in PE and the coach is probably about 60 and spry. The kids obeyed both the coach and myself, making eye contact to check that they had done things correctly. My high schooler stands up for the teacher if one of her fellow students gets a bit uppity. There's still plenty of room for play and creativity; the teachers aren't ogres. But they do demand respect and the parents back them.
Yes, there are disrepectful American teens, but just not in the numbers and outright disobedience that I've seen in many British teens.
For example: a rule in a uni classroom could be that the mobiles stay in pockets/rucksacks in class, turned off. If a mobile rings, or worse, someone carries on a conversation -- instant dismissal from the classroom and demerits/bad marks. This is fully possible in the US. Would it be possible in the UK?
Mar 2nd 2008, 4:20 am
#25
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
And yes, I agree with you, it is time I cleared off. Just as soon as I can get a job and a visa.
Top idea
Apr 14th 2008, 10:27 am
#26
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
OK, I know this is MBTTUK and we're only supposed to say positive things about the home country, but I have to have one of my occasional rants. HEALTH WARNING: Stop reading now if you are easily offended by any criticism of the UK.
I stopped my first year lecture today after about 30 minutes, because several students in the class were CONSTANTLY talking. Every time I gave them "the look", they would stop, and the second I looked away, they would start again. I absolutely ripped into them about mutual respect, expectations, etc., and I honestly feel like, other than the shock of seeing me clearly p*ssed off, it was like water off a duck's back.
Besides the constant chatterng, some of the students were passing newspapers around under the desk. In an earlier class (third years) one student was actually making a phone call during class! A guest lecturer had been talking about interviewing techniques, and the class were in groups practising interviewing each other, so this girl took the opportunity of a little hubbub going on to actually make a phone call!
Since coming back from the US, I feel like I have ended my career as I know it. Without bragging, I received three different teaching awards at my last place in the US, but currently I just can not find "the answer" to engaging UK students. Attendance is regularly around 75% (which, I am told is apparently GOOD!), students regularly roll in late, they won't talk up when you want them to (i.e., when you ask them a question), and they are constantly twittering when they are supposed to be paying attention. The "stories" I tell to illustrate things (which US students would find amusing, interesting and informative) seem to elicit looks that say "What the ***** is he going on about now?"
GAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! Please, someone shoot me and put me out of my misery! If I didn't have a ridiculously high mortgage to pay each month, I feel like I'd resign tomorrow. I just can't take the idea that after 6 years of grad school and 10 years in jobs I have absolutely loved, I now sometimes detest the idea of walking into a classroom. If I don't get out of here and back to the States, I feel like I will slowly go mad, or just wither away into one of these pathetic teachers who sits in his office grumbling about the students.
Has UK higher education really come to this, or am I missing something?
I stopped my first year lecture today after about 30 minutes, because several students in the class were CONSTANTLY talking. Every time I gave them "the look", they would stop, and the second I looked away, they would start again. I absolutely ripped into them about mutual respect, expectations, etc., and I honestly feel like, other than the shock of seeing me clearly p*ssed off, it was like water off a duck's back.
Besides the constant chatterng, some of the students were passing newspapers around under the desk. In an earlier class (third years) one student was actually making a phone call during class! A guest lecturer had been talking about interviewing techniques, and the class were in groups practising interviewing each other, so this girl took the opportunity of a little hubbub going on to actually make a phone call!
Since coming back from the US, I feel like I have ended my career as I know it. Without bragging, I received three different teaching awards at my last place in the US, but currently I just can not find "the answer" to engaging UK students. Attendance is regularly around 75% (which, I am told is apparently GOOD!), students regularly roll in late, they won't talk up when you want them to (i.e., when you ask them a question), and they are constantly twittering when they are supposed to be paying attention. The "stories" I tell to illustrate things (which US students would find amusing, interesting and informative) seem to elicit looks that say "What the ***** is he going on about now?"
GAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!! Please, someone shoot me and put me out of my misery! If I didn't have a ridiculously high mortgage to pay each month, I feel like I'd resign tomorrow. I just can't take the idea that after 6 years of grad school and 10 years in jobs I have absolutely loved, I now sometimes detest the idea of walking into a classroom. If I don't get out of here and back to the States, I feel like I will slowly go mad, or just wither away into one of these pathetic teachers who sits in his office grumbling about the students.
Has UK higher education really come to this, or am I missing something?
I was thinking of this thread today while I was sitting through yet another lecture where students were incessantly chatting. It is soooo annoying. Thankfully the lecturer did pull them up on it, but most of them don't. Given these students are adults and are paying for their education you'd think they'd actually want to make the most of it. Or am I just getting old?!!!!
What surprises me is that these are Psych students!! I would have thought anyone studying psych would have had a bit of sensitivity and nous about appropriate behaviour
Interestingly while waiting for coffee I got chatting to a professor who had come over from Canterbury and I asked him if he found a difference between UK students and Aus students. He said that the Aus students tend to do the minimum amount of work possible in order to pass because they are simply doing the degree in order to get the job they need a degree for! He said "there's nothing wrong with that, it woudl just be nice to have at least some students who were just genuinely interested in the subject and learning".
A long winded way of saying these slack students are everywhere!
May 3rd 2008, 2:38 pm
#27
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
I agree wtih you Rabsody - seems like it is a universal phenomenon. I am also a Psych student and it is sooooo annoying when you are trying to listen to a lecture about the funtion of the brain and all you can here is chatting.
May 5th 2008, 1:34 am
#28
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
No, I can definitely put my hand on my heart and say this is not just me rationalizing the desire to leave ... I've been teaching since 1977 and so I have a lot of experience to compare to.
I was chatting with one of our PhD students earlier (he taught a guest lecture with me in someone else's class this afternoon). he did his undergrad degree at another local university and he actually said he sees a big difference between what he saw at his undergrad institution (I won't use names) and where I am.
Ironically, I was in Wales for 6 months and although it didn't work out great for other reasons (mostly salary way too low), the students there were not too bad. It was an allied health department (nurses, speech and language therapy, social work), and many of the students were nontraditional (older, in full-time or P-T employment).
I think part of it may be that Scottish students are a year younger, and so are just lacking in maturity.
And yes, I agree with you, it is time I cleared off. Just as soon as I can get a job and a visa.
I was chatting with one of our PhD students earlier (he taught a guest lecture with me in someone else's class this afternoon). he did his undergrad degree at another local university and he actually said he sees a big difference between what he saw at his undergrad institution (I won't use names) and where I am.
Ironically, I was in Wales for 6 months and although it didn't work out great for other reasons (mostly salary way too low), the students there were not too bad. It was an allied health department (nurses, speech and language therapy, social work), and many of the students were nontraditional (older, in full-time or P-T employment).
I think part of it may be that Scottish students are a year younger, and so are just lacking in maturity.
And yes, I agree with you, it is time I cleared off. Just as soon as I can get a job and a visa.
May 5th 2008, 12:17 pm
#29
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May 5th 2008, 12:19 pm
#30
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Re: Students in the UK - are they really like this everywhere?
How far in are you in your degree Debsy?