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Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Old Jun 29th 2008, 6:12 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by jonfrank123
It is a huge huge generalisation, why say it?
The answer is that, as I said, it is causing very real and serious problems in some parts of Britain. I know this because I have had some extremely unpleasant first hand experiences of it.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 6:40 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by jonfrank123
It is a huge huge generalisation, why say it?
It may be a generalisation but I think it's a bit naive to think multiculturalism has all been smooth sailing.

Being factual about what you see with your own eyes or offering opinion does not make you racist and I think this fear of being perceived as racist and intolerant has stopped sensible solutions and exacerbated some situations. When you have the Archbishop of Canterbury professing a requirement for Sharia Law to sit side by side UK law, there is a problem! Ditto the push for polygamous marriages to be accepted in Australia (apparently it legally penalises the additional wives otherwise ).

I'm all for tolerance but not to the detriment of the host culture (and admittedly we Brits have an incredibly bad track record on that one).

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Old Jun 29th 2008, 7:07 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by rabsody
It may be a generalisation but I think it's a bit naive to think multiculturalism has all been smooth sailing.

Being factual about what you see with your own eyes or offering opinion does not make you racist and I think this fear of being perceived as racist and intolerant has stopped sensible solutions and exacerbated some situations. When you have the Archbishop of Canterbury professing a requirement for Sharia Law to sit side by side UK law, there is a problem! Ditto the push for polygamous marriages to be accepted in Australia (apparently it legally penalises the additional wives otherwise ).

I'm all for tolerance but not to the detriment of the host culture (and admittedly we Brits have an incredibly bad track record on that one).
Couldn't agree more. As for that so-called Archbishop of Canturbury, of all the insane things he could possibly say, that is surely the very very worst.

I wonder if he actually has any idea what Sharia Law actually involves, and how badly it contradicts the values that his own church supposedly stands for, and the values that Britain has fought hard for for many centuries?

There are possibly one or two aspects of Sharia Law that could provide some inspriation for amendments to the British legal system (which is admittedly in extremely poor shape), but I most certainly wouldn't want adulterers and homosexuals stoned to death, women treated as inferior and required to completely cover up their bodies at all times, or compulsory beards for men etc etc. It's complete insanity.

Last edited by backagen; Jun 29th 2008 at 7:15 pm.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 7:22 pm
  #49  
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by backagen
Couldn't agree more. As for that so-called Archbishop of Canturbury, of all the insane things he could possibly say, that is surely the very very worst.

I wonder if he actually has any idea what Sharia Law actually involves, and how badly it contradicts the values that his own church supposedly stands for, and the values that Britain has fought hard for for many centuries?

There are possibly one or two aspects of Sharia Law that could provide some inspriation for amendments to the British legal system (which is admittedly in extremely poor shape), but I most certainly wouldn't want adulterers and homosexuals stoned to death, women treated as inferior and required to completely cover up their bodies at all times, or compulsory beards for men etc etc. It's complete insanity.
I would have to agree and I can't see Muslim countries introducing democratic law or secularism anytime soon. It's not a 'let's hate on the Muslims' rant at all but I just genuinely cannot fathom, in what I have learnt to date about the Islamic faith (admittedly not much), why any of them would want to move to a western society when it is so diametrically opposed in terms of values and ideologies. It just seems so at odds. But admittedly I need to read more on the subject and may be showing my ignorance in this regard.

Last edited by rabsody; Jun 29th 2008 at 7:32 pm.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 8:28 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by rabsody
I would have to agree and I can't see Muslim countries introducing democratic law or secularism anytime soon. It's not a 'let's hate on the Muslims' rant at all but I just genuinely cannot fathom, in what I have learnt to date about the Islamic faith (admittedly not much), why any of them would want to move to a western society when it is so diametrically opposed in terms of values and ideologies. It just seems so at odds. But admittedly I need to read more on the subject and may be showing my ignorance in this regard.
Don't forget about Turkey. The Turkish system is secular, although there is some debate about whether it is Islamic secularism or secular Islam, etc. FYI they move here for economic reasons, the same many UK people move to the US or Australia. They have never been integrated into British society due to a failure of British policy.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 8:38 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by rabsody
It may be a generalisation but I think it's a bit naive to think multiculturalism has all been smooth sailing.

Being factual about what you see with your own eyes or offering opinion does not make you racist and I think this fear of being perceived as racist and intolerant has stopped sensible solutions and exacerbated some situations. When you have the Archbishop of Canterbury professing a requirement for Sharia Law to sit side by side UK law, there is a problem! Ditto the push for polygamous marriages to be accepted in Australia (apparently it legally penalises the additional wives otherwise ).

I'm all for tolerance but not to the detriment of the host culture (and admittedly we Brits have an incredibly bad track record on that one).

Hear Hear,!!!!! Absolutely spot on!
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 8:56 pm
  #52  
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by backagen
The problem I have with people who immigrate to the UK, especially from countries such as India and Pakistan, is that they often don't make a genuine effort to
- Learn and speak English
- Get jobs and support themselves
- Comply with UK cultural norms (such as good personal hygiene, style of clothing, respect for UK laws, etc)

Before anyone complains, let me acknowledge that the above is a massive generalisation, and there are plenty of immigrants form those and other countries who are fantastic additions to the country.

Sadly though there's certain areas in England where it's extremely obvious that they're not, and they bring down the whole character and quality of life for everyone in those communities.

The other problem I have is simply that there's far too many immigrants coming into the UK. This seems to be causing, and certainly has potential to cause, massive problems by overloadng the countries infrastructures.

I'm NOT racist against anyone from any country, but I have personally observed these sorts of problems and they can be serious.

In fairness though I should acknowledge that from what I've read recently in the news, it seems that the British government is now putting better immigration controls in place, so that should be a good first step in addressing these issues.

But really... how much does it effect you that they dont learn English? Its not like you have to speak to Mrs Patel often, only probably her son/daughter who is a doctor.

That list of UK culture was very funny btw. Hygiene... you do realise we considered quite a dirty race in Europe, America and Aussie?

I agree that we are full to the brim though.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 9:04 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Londonuck
I agree that we are full to the brim though.
Some studies have been done on optimum population. I think about 30 million was the figure reached, but I don't know their methodology of course or even if I agree with it as an approximate figure. I do know however that the UK is chronically overpopulated!
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 9:10 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Tableland
Some studies have been done on optimum population. I think about 30 million was the figure reached, but I don't know their methodology of course or even if I agree with it as an approximate figure. I do know however that the UK is chronically overpopulated!
My train from Surbiton to Waterloo is a fine example. Two years ago, when i moved out here from Clapham Jct, it was half empty. Now you struggle to find a seat. They build these blocks of flats on ground that once houses pubs and suddenly you've got another 40 people every morning trying to get to work. The journey in from Clapham Junction would make you cry. I wouldnt be able to get on about 5 trains every morning.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 9:15 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Londonuck
My train from Surbiton to Waterloo is a fine example. Two years ago, when i moved out here from Clapham Jct, it was half empty. Now you struggle to find a seat. They build these blocks of flats on ground that once houses pubs and suddenly you've got another 40 people every morning trying to get to work. The journey in from Clapham Junction would make you cry. I wouldnt be able to get on about 5 trains every morning.
I have noticed a similar increase in congestion on my A road into work over the last five years. I have often made the point that this is because the authorities fail to invest in infrastructure expansion, but if you think about it, what would be the point in spending all that money on more trains or widening roads if you happen to believe that the economy will soon start contracting? I'm not propogating a conspiracy theory here at all, but just saying that if you were in givernment and you could see the end was nigh, you wouldn't be able to justify spending billions on infrastructure development.
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Old Jun 29th 2008, 9:55 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Londonuck
I wouldnt be able to get on about 5 trains every morning.
That's ridiculous isn't it?

all that extra time you could have had in bed too!
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Old Jun 30th 2008, 8:26 am
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

It seems to be a pattern everywhere in the developed world that an area will become the center for industry and commerce and then too many people will live there. London was "overcrowded" in the 18th century, and horribly overcrowded in the 19th! Before trains it was becoming close to uninhabitable because of horse dung everywhere.

In the usual pattern, housing is built further out, transportation is developed to serve that, and more people move there. So further out, and further out until the midlands is "commuting distance to London!"

Not sure what the point of this is, except that it's the same in Toronto, New York, Los Angeles, and probably Mumbai, Mexico City etc etc etc.

Every trip home I'm stunned by the amount of open countryside there still is in crowded England. It's something to be proud of.

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Old Jun 30th 2008, 12:19 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Tableland
I have noticed a similar increase in congestion on my A road into work over the last five years. I have often made the point that this is because the authorities fail to invest in infrastructure expansion, but if you think about it, what would be the point in spending all that money on more trains or widening roads if you happen to believe that the economy will soon start contracting? I'm not propogating a conspiracy theory here at all, but just saying that if you were in givernment and you could see the end was nigh, you wouldn't be able to justify spending billions on infrastructure development.
I'm not sure I go along with this, being a visitor back to London/ SOuth East every 2 to 3 months, I am amazed at the amount of infrastructure development in London.

Case in point when I went through the New St Pancras rail terminal last week I was stunned, it's absolutely fantastic. Also drove down the M2, being widened, took the rail in Kent, being upgraded, tonnes of new rolling stock on the tube. Has there been this amount of development in 30 years in my part of Canada let alone 3 years, i seriously doubt it.

Look at the London skyline there are cranes everywhere building new skyscrapers and the olympics. Where I live there is one crane, a rich guy rebuilding his house. London is a city that keeps reinventing itself. In Montreal you can't even take a train to the airport and you can only get a rush hour service from the burbs, the trains stop running in the day it's a rubbish service.

The infrastructure in London is decades ahead of this city and I'm sure many others in North America, but so many Londoners love to moan about it.
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Old Jun 30th 2008, 8:49 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by jonfrank123
I'm not sure I go along with this, being a visitor back to London/ SOuth East every 2 to 3 months, I am amazed at the amount of infrastructure development in London.

Case in point when I went through the New St Pancras rail terminal last week I was stunned, it's absolutely fantastic. Also drove down the M2, being widened, took the rail in Kent, being upgraded, tonnes of new rolling stock on the tube. Has there been this amount of development in 30 years in my part of Canada let alone 3 years, i seriously doubt it.

Look at the London skyline there are cranes everywhere building new skyscrapers and the olympics. Where I live there is one crane, a rich guy rebuilding his house. London is a city that keeps reinventing itself. In Montreal you can't even take a train to the airport and you can only get a rush hour service from the burbs, the trains stop running in the day it's a rubbish service.

The infrastructure in London is decades ahead of this city and I'm sure many others in North America, but so many Londoners love to moan about it.
I respect your different view. I would add two points though, the first is that London is not the UK. London has been flooded with money due to its pivotal role in the finance markets, which are now going down the pan, and second (and related) the projects you are seeing were commissioned some time ago when there was more optimism about the future.
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Old Jun 30th 2008, 9:48 pm
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Default Re: Rose tinted specs or a reality check

Originally Posted by Tableland
I respect your different view. I would add two points though, the first is that London is not the UK. London has been flooded with money due to its pivotal role in the finance markets, which are now going down the pan, and second (and related) the projects you are seeing were commissioned some time ago when there was more optimism about the future.
True enough, only time will tell. Then again we've gone through numerous recessions and survived. Things have gone down the pan many times before, sometimes a lot worse and the optimism returned.

Unfortunately the whole world is exposed to this, the financial markets hurt the UK, but then again industry is dying in Canada because they do nearly 90% of trade with the USA, which isn't doing too well at the moment.
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