The Real NHS

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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:08 pm
  #91  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Pom_Chch View Post
nun you're missing my point. I'm saying that NHS tourism is on the increase and will prove more of a problem in the future. Yes it's 0.01% now but if foreigners continue to abuse the system that figure will increase and become an even bigger burden for the NHS.
I read in earlier post that residency was now being strictly enforced.......eg American woman refused treatment. So I assumed the problem was being reduced. Am I wrong in that assumption? It seems like an insignificant issue that can be solved by simple residency checks - so why the animation? There are far more important issues with the NHS so why are we focusing on this?

Last edited by nun; Sep 19th 2012 at 12:12 pm.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:15 pm
  #92  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Pom_Chch View Post
nun you're missing my point. I'm saying that NHS tourism is on the increase and will prove more of a problem in the future. Yes it's 0.01% now but if foreigners continue to abuse the system that figure will increase and become an even bigger burden for the NHS.

Again, no I don't have figures or stats but check out these articles. I know the tabloids aren't have a particularly accurate reporting style but the underlying point still remains - NHS tourism is a problem and will continue to be a problem if we don't nip it in the bud. If nun can sit there and tell me that she has more experience working in the NHS than my mother and I combined then I will eat my hat! It's easy to look in from the outside and say my point isn't valid because I have no figures but until you work for the place in question you wont understand the full extent of NHS tourism. Thanks for backing me up there MissBetty, I'm sure many other NHS workers will do the same!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...e-the-NHS.html

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16151735.html

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...busing-our-NHS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...treatment.html

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/...lion-1-2486609

And one last thing is that I'm not going into any more details regarding other problems facing the NHS and what I will do to solve them! That is a can of worms that I will not be opening, especially not on a forum.
Yep, I'm not opening that can of worms on a public forum either! Lets just carry on doing our jobs, attending to the sick and injured doing the best we can and let the politicians try and sort it out
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:18 pm
  #93  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by MissBetty View Post
Yep, I'm not opening that can of worms on a public forum either! Lets just carry on doing our jobs, attending to the sick and injured doing the best we can and let the politicians try and sort it out
Or better yet maybe nun can sort it out with her statistics as she seems to know so much about the subject
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:19 pm
  #94  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Pom_Chch View Post
Or better yet maybe nun can sort it out with her statistics as she seems to know so much about the subject
Lol!
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:21 pm
  #95  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

I think most of us can relate to good and/or bad experiences with health care services in countries where they have resided and, by virtue of their profession, those who have worked on the frontline will have had many more experiences that they can relate to.

I agree with Nun that 'health tourism' is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. And let's be honest, if you or your loved one, were ill and didn't have access to healthcare in the country where you abided, who you not take the opportunity to find care if it was available? I would. Besides, what's the difference, morally, between those who are classified as 'health tourists' who haven't paid into the system and those of us who have lived abroad for 'x' amount of years and not paid into the system?
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:42 pm
  #96  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

May I just say again that whilst I agree that 0.01% of NHS expenditure on health tourism is a low amount in the grand scheme of things, there is every chance that this will increase and will become a bigger problem. All I am saying is that having worked in the NHS it was a growing problem at the time. Now bringing in proof of residency and address will (hopefully!) reduce this from happening, which I am all for.

Bud the Wiser - I totally agree with you when it comes to British expats leaving the country for x amount of years only to return and have access to the NHS. There are many people in this world who feel they are entitled to something for nothing, which I will never understand!
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 12:55 pm
  #97  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser View Post
I think most of us can relate to good and/or bad experiences with health care services in countries where they have resided and, by virtue of their profession, those who have worked on the frontline will have had many more experiences that they can relate to.

I agree with Nun that 'health tourism' is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. And let's be honest, if you or your loved one, were ill and didn't have access to healthcare in the country where you abided, who you not take the opportunity to find care if it was available? I would. Besides, what's the difference, morally, between those who are classified as 'health tourists' who haven't paid into the system and those of us who have lived abroad for 'x' amount of years and not paid into the system?
Still doesn't make it right though IMHO. I do see your point re expats but most of us HAVE paid into the system at some point so have more right to treatment on the NHS then someone who has never paid in at all.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 2:43 pm
  #98  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Pom_Chch View Post
Or better yet maybe nun can sort it out with her statistics as she seems to know so much about the subject
I think we are working from the same facts, I do not pretend to know more. However, I do believe that I look at those facts objectively and do not invent spurious connections or jump to conclusions that are not supported by those facts. It seems to be agreed that NHS tourism is a small problem, that action has been taken to reduce it and it's obvious that it annoys some people far out of proportion to the actual impact on the NHS. I wish as much commitment was given to addressing the actual factors that produce waiting lines such as funding levels, efficiency, staffing levels, and issues like public health connected with diet, smoking and alcohol. The increase in diabetes rates should be of far more concern than NHS tourism.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 2:52 pm
  #99  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Bud the Wiser View Post
Besides, what's the difference, morally, between those who are classified as 'health tourists' who haven't paid into the system and those of us who have lived abroad for 'x' amount of years and not paid into the system?
Interesting question, neither have paid UK taxes. There is obviously a legal difference as residency qualifies you for NHS treatment (as does emergency). A returning expat UK citizen can become resident from the day they move back to the UK so they get all that lovely NHS treatment after not paying any UK tax for maybe years and years. But that is the founding principal of the NHS. It is free at the point of service and does not depend on the amount of tax you pay or your ability to pay, just your residency status. I have no problem with checking that status and actually think it's a good thing as it will help to reduce the anxiety and blood pressure of many people.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 2:54 pm
  #100  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by nun View Post
I think we are working from the same facts, I do not pretend to know more. However, I do believe that I look at those facts objectively and do not invent spurious connections or jump to conclusions that are not supported by those facts. It seems to be agreed that NHS tourism is a small problem, that action has been taken to reduce it and it's obvious that it annoys some people far out of proportion to the actual impact on the NHS. I wish as much commitment was given to addressing the actual factors that produce waiting lines such as funding levels, efficiency, staffing levels, and issues like public health connected with diet, smoking and alcohol. The increase in diabetes rates should be of far more concern than NHS tourism.
I agree - but I wish some of these problems were more straightforward to identify and deal with.

Kenneth Cooper (W Bush's physician) was a candidate for Surgeon General about 10 years ago. He suggested fat people should pay more tax. A straightforward solution to a complex problem. Needless to say he shot himself in the foot, for lots of reasons.

Alcoholics, people who eat too much at McDonalds, people whose TV is on for more than 6 hours a day ... let's tax them all more, so they can pay for their disproprtionate NHS burden.

Discuss.


(Tongue firmly in cheek, just in case anyone doesn't realise).
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 2:59 pm
  #101  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Did you know the whole of England is computer linked by the NHS? A few years back we went into the ER in Lancaster as Dd dislocated her elbow (nursemaids elbow) on arrival the reception asked our home address, and said all of England and soon to be Scotland and Wales were connected on the computer, she could look us up by our address and GP name and surgery. So that the appropriate health authority knew we'd had care and paid the bill (or something like that)
As we were visiting I told her we had insurance, she said didn't need it, and Doc would be along, Dd fixed it herself while waiting so we never saw the doc.
So it won't be long before Tourists are actually billed for care as they won't have a GP and address to be looked up on the computer. She also said that eventually everyone would be issued with a healthcare card like a credit card to access care which I think would be a brilliant idea.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 3:11 pm
  #102  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by nun View Post
So I'm interested to know the other problems you see with the NHS and what you would do to solve them.
That was one of the things this government asked on their website, when they first got into power. The suggestion that seemed to gather the most support was a 2 tier system. The 1st list was for those that had worked and paid taxes to the UK for their working life and the 2nd list was for all the others.

Nobody likes to see a pensioner who has worked all their life in the UK, be stuck on a NHS waiting list behind those that haven't and HMRC can easily access the required information.

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Old Sep 19th 2012, 3:57 pm
  #103  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mummy in the foothills View Post
Did you know the whole of England is computer linked by the NHS? A few years back we went into the ER in Lancaster as Dd dislocated her elbow (nursemaids elbow) on arrival the reception asked our home address, and said all of England and soon to be Scotland and Wales were connected on the computer, she could look us up by our address and GP name and surgery. So that the appropriate health authority knew we'd had care and paid the bill (or something like that)
As we were visiting I told her we had insurance, she said didn't need it, and Doc would be along, Dd fixed it herself while waiting so we never saw the doc.
So it won't be long before Tourists are actually billed for care as they won't have a GP and address to be looked up on the computer. She also said that eventually everyone would be issued with a healthcare card like a credit card to access care which I think would be a brilliant idea.
I'm all for sorting out this NHS problem but doubt a credit card type system would totally solve the problem, people forge Driving licenses and Credit Cards so Im sure they would do the same with NHS cards...

On second thought why not spend that money on care, Life isnt fair and there will always be those that know how to take advantage of the system...I know many wont agree with me...

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Old Sep 19th 2012, 4:46 pm
  #104  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by formula View Post
That was one of the things this government asked on their website, when they first got into power. The suggestion that seemed to gather the most support was a 2 tier system. The 1st list was for those that had worked and paid taxes to the UK for their working life and the 2nd list was for all the others.

Nobody likes to see a pensioner who has worked all their life in the UK, be stuck on a NHS waiting list behind those that haven't and HMRC can easily access the required information.
That is a radical departure from the origins of the NHS. It is an interesting proposal, but obviously those who do not or cannot work would have to be considered. How would the poor who fall below taxable income levels be treated? What about people who only work for say 15 years and then stop. Students and children are others. Would a non-employed spouse be able to use their working spouses tax record for their own treatment. If they could I can already see the Daily Mail headlines about marriages of convenience to defraud the NHS.

I feel that the residency requirement is far simpler, efficient, less bureaucratic, and in the end fairer and better for the health of the nation....and therefore less expensive than schemes that rely on an assessment of eligibility from tax receipts.

Last edited by nun; Sep 19th 2012 at 4:51 pm.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 9:31 am
  #105  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by nun View Post
As I argued before the treatment of foreign visitors has no impact whatsoever on the overall performance of the NHS. Taxation is not a criterion for access to the NHS and people are at the bottom of waiting lists for other reasons than NHS tourism.

But with residency being enforced more stringently I expect this 0.01% problem to be falling to an even more insignificant level and I hope that it will not be a problem for you any longer.
Health tourism is a "convenient" scapegoat for other inefficiencies and issues in the NHS. I'm all for the NHS enforcing it's residency requirements (I once tried to pay for NHS treatment as a visitor and they declined to take my money - wtf?), but let's be realistic here - the NHS has rather more significant issues to address. Of course, that won't stop the Daily Mails of this world from their agenda.
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