The Real NHS

Old Sep 26th 2012, 3:54 pm
  #136  
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Default Re: The Real NHS



Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
Problem is the waiting lists. In the UK you have to wait a couple of years before your appointment with the death panel comes up, in the US they see you immediately..
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 4:11 pm
  #137  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by chris955 View Post
That cant be true, you must be making it up How can people in 3rd world UK live longer than Americans, it just aint right I tells ya.
These figures are from the CIA (US Central Intelligence Agency.) Are you suggesting they are not trustworthy?? I can pass your message along, and they can probably reopen your file...
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 4:15 pm
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by robin1234 View Post
These figures are from the CIA (US Central Intelligence Agency.) Are you suggesting they are not trustworthy?? I can pass your message along, and they can probably reopen your file...
Do you know how long it took me to get it closed ?
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 4:17 pm
  #139  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by chris955 View Post
Do you know how long it took me to get it closed ?
I do, actually. Don't forget the copy in the Stasi Archives in Berlin.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 4:25 pm
  #140  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by chris955 View Post
That cant be true, you must be making it up How can people in 3rd world UK live longer than Americans, it just aint right I tells ya.
Probably because of demographics. It's a known fact that Caucasians live longer than blacks. Blacks suffer much more from diabetes, hypertension, kidney disease and heart disease. I believe that about 12% of the population in the US is black, which would obviously be a different demographic than a mostly Caucasian European country. Statistics are fine, but they don't always give a realistic picture. But then, you knew that didn't you?
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 4:50 pm
  #141  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
Probably because of demographics. It's a known fact that Caucasians live longer than blacks. Blacks suffer much more from diabetes, hypertension, kidney disease and heart disease. I believe that about 12% of the population in the US is black, which would obviously be a different demographic than a mostly Caucasian European country. Statistics are fine, but they don't always give a realistic picture. But then, you knew that didn't you?
What do you believe are the reasons for the "facts" you refer to.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 5:09 pm
  #142  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

[QUOTE=LA2JHB;10300439 sure it is "free" but you still pay taxes to support it and it is essentially dysfunctional. It is not better than the US system. I have worked in both and in terms of all clinical outcomes, the US system is far superior and at the end of the day healthcare is about clinical outcomes.[/QUOTE]

Agreed Taxes are paid to support it, nothing is in life is free...

Dysfunctional in your eyes but still Brits live longer than Americans...

Tell us the US system is better than the NHS once you dont have healthcare insurance or have poor coverage like myself...

Clinical outcome is NOT the only issue, the Issue is Quality of Life, which includes the clinical outcome, so now tell me how many people in the UK have gone medically bankrupt and lost their homes...

Last edited by Fish n Chips 56; Sep 26th 2012 at 5:37 pm.
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Old Sep 26th 2012, 5:13 pm
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
Probably because of demographics. It's a known fact that Caucasians live longer than blacks. Blacks suffer much more from diabetes, hypertension, kidney disease and heart disease. I believe that about 12% of the population in the US is black, which would obviously be a different demographic than a mostly Caucasian European country. Statistics are fine, but they don't always give a realistic picture. But then, you knew that didn't you?
I'll take statistics - imperfect though the are - over a "Probably because of.." any day. And assuming your hypothesis is true, how appalling that the system of healthcare access in the US means that blacks are disproportionately likely to be uninsured or underinsured because of their poorer economic situation.
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 12:33 am
  #144  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by nun View Post
What do you believe are the reasons for the "facts" you refer to.

Blacks get glaucoma at a rate 5 times that of Caucasians. Do you think that is because of genetics, or because they don't have health insurance?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gla...N=risk-factors

hypertension - experts don't know why blacks have more hypertension than Caucasians.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/j...on-012605.html

could diabetes be genetic?

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patient...ges/index.aspx

http://www.med.unc.edu/www/newsarchi...ican-americans

Last edited by Mallory; Sep 27th 2012 at 1:28 am. Reason: add links
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 1:46 am
  #145  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
Blacks get glaucoma at a rate 5 times that of Caucasians. Do you think that is because of genetics, or because they don't have health insurance?

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gla...N=risk-factors

hypertension - experts don't know why blacks have more hypertension than Caucasians.

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/j...on-012605.html

could diabetes be genetic?

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patient...ges/index.aspx

http://www.med.unc.edu/www/newsarchi...ican-americans
So are there other factors that might contribute to acute illness in certain demographics? Is genetics the only possible explanation or is it just one of a number of factors. What about conditions such as celiac disease which has a high occurrence in Celtic and Scandinavian populations. Is celiac disease a major factor in Ireland's life expectancy....after all most people in Ireland are of celtic descent. To claim that the lower life expectancy of the US is caused by demographics is a specious and objectionable argument particularly when the UK has such a diverse population.

Rich people live far longer than poor people, obviously rich people are not genetically different from poor people, so maybe other factors are even more important than genetics when considering the life expectancy of large groups of people. The determining factors are those that are common across the group, such as access to healthcare and nutrition. This is a good place to start

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-pa...OST-PN-276.pdf

The obvious situation where genetics has a effect on life expectancy is between the sexes, but how can we quantify the effect of genetics and separate it out from other factors....its isn't easy. But we can start to resolve the race issue as a factor by comparing similar ethnic groups in the US and the UK

Life expectancy for Black Americans in 2003 = 69
Life Expectancy for UK Afro Caribbean descent in 2001 = 75

So what is the reason for the difference, obviously not genetics.....also the difference between the life expectancy of whites vs blacks in the UK is far less than in the US. So I conclude that the difference in life expectancy between the US and the UK has nothing to do with ethnicity as the same result is shown when similar ethnic groups are compared.

Last edited by nun; Sep 27th 2012 at 2:23 am.
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:13 am
  #146  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by nun View Post
So are there other factors that might contribute to acute illness in certain demographics? Is genetics the only possible explanation or is it just one of a number of factors. What about conditions such as celiac disease which has a high occurrence in Celtic and Scandinavian populations. Is celiac disease a major factor in Ireland's life expectancy....after all most people in Ireland are of celtic descent. To claim that the lower life expectancy of the US is caused by demographics is a specious and objectionable argument particularly when the UK has such a diverse population.

Rich people live far longer than poor people, obviously rich people are not genetically different from poor people, so maybe other factors are even more important than genetics when considering the life expectancy of large groups of people. The determining factors are those that are common across the group, such as access to healthcare and nutrition.
Have you ever read studies on identical twins that were separated at birth. No matter where or how they were brought up, they still had similar weight, similar intelligence, similar habits, similar health outcome, similar life spans? Many studies have been done on this - doesn't matter if they were brought up one rich and one poor, still almost identical health history and life spans. Do genetics play a part, or just coincidence?
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:31 am
  #147  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
Have you ever read studies on identical twins that were separated at birth. No matter where or how they were brought up, they still had similar weight, similar intelligence, similar habits, similar health outcome, similar life spans? Many studies have been done on this - doesn't matter if they were brought up one rich and one poor, still almost identical health history and life spans. Do genetics play a part, or just coincidence?
I have not seen the studies, maybe you could post links. How were the factors like health care and nutrition assessed and controlled? Genetics play a part in an individuals health so I'm not surprised twins (who are genetically identical) would follow similar trajectories in some ways....so given your thesis why is there such difference in life expectancy between genetically similar groups in the US and the UK? If it was just genetics they should have the same life expectancy.

Last edited by nun; Sep 27th 2012 at 2:35 am.
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:36 am
  #148  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

"Mounting evidence indicates that racial/ethnic differences in morbidity and mortality are tied to socioeconomic resources"

Plenty of studies cited in this extract:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?reco...11086&page=310
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:36 am
  #149  
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Originally Posted by nun View Post
I have not seen the studies, maybe you could post links. How were the factors like health care and nutrition assessed and controlled? Genetics play a part in an individuals health so I'm not surprised twins (who are genetically identical) would follow similar trajectories in some ways....but we are talking about populations not individuals. That's the critical difference you interesting observation ignores.
I've given you several links concerning genetics. If you want to read more, please use Google.
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Old Sep 27th 2012, 2:38 am
  #150  
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Default Re: The Real NHS

Originally Posted by Mallory View Post
I've given you several links concerning genetics. If you want to read more, please use Google.
Thanks I've read the links you provided, but suggesting I Google in the expectation that I will draw conclusions similar to yours doesn't address the life expectancy differences between similar ethnic groups in the US and the UK....I'll provide links to my data if you want....but as you say it's all on Google. That would be something to address in your next post.

Last edited by nun; Sep 27th 2012 at 2:42 am.
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