Perspective.
 

It's an odd thing, why does one person see a lovely village with an idyllic lifestyle and another see a horrible place with hoodies and crime everywhere ?
Having spent a couple of years on these forums I am constantly amazed at some of the things I read and wonder if especially in relation to the UK if they are talking about a different country altogether.
I do understand that immigrants and would be immigrants prefer to see things in a certain way to 'justify' the move but to what extent do they believe some of what they say ?
I saw the other day when someone said 'there is nowhere in Australia where crime is as bad as the UK', now obviously this isn't accurate but does the poster believe it or is it a coping mechanism ?
I was in the UK late last year and fully expected to see gangs on every corner and be unable to walk the streets without fearing for my life, I was almost disappointed to find this wasn't the case.

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depends on the area, innit!

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Well yes obviously it depends on the area but it always seems to be Australia/UK not Birmingham/Brisbane or wherever. Just broad sweeping generalisations.

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I am amazed at some of the crap ex pats tell themselves about the UK, you name it I have heard it. Personally I think the sweeping generalizations make them sound stupid.

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I agree, many of the things they say are just ridiculous and as you say just make them seem like fools. I honestlybwas fully expecting to see see gangs on virtually every corner, everyone out of work and if I got away with being stabbed only twice in the 3 week trip I could count myself as being very lucky :lol:

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Sam as anywhere though. Compare crime in the Yorkshire Dales to crime at 126th and Lexington in the Bronx and I know which one would come out on top.

It's not just British expats who are negative. We have a friend staying with us at the moment and it's like having a little black cloud move into the house. Oy!

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Figures compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations show:

*The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
*It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
*The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
*It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.
*Britain being named as the most violent country in the EU is the most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

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I think when you don't like a place & are planning to move away it is only natural to focus on the negative things, often to an irrational extent, as a coping mechanism type of thing. Strangely the reverse psychology also seems to apply, i.e. the phenomenon you describe. Perhaps something to do with trying to compensate for insecurities resulting from being in a new place, not neccessarily consciously. It might be a stage of culture shock, before you eventually come to the view that everywhere has different good & bad points!

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Yes it's an odd thing that's for sure. What is even more intriguing is when an ex pat will make excuses for every bit of bad news regarding their new home but will twist any good news about their old home to give it a negative slant.

An interesting set of facts, I'm sure the Daily Mail would have made them look different though ;)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/ja...owest-12-years

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I think the UK has a serious self esteem problem! Probably the only country in the world that joins in bad mouthing itself! You never hear an Aussie saying anything bad about their own country & wo-betide anyone who dares to even slightly have a gumble about Oz....

I think if we were to gagg the UK press of any bad news or it be law that at least 80% of what they print had to have a positive angle, then you'd see a different country!

You should hear some of the comments we have had about moving back to UK... " thats a bit crazy" said x1 person another "you must be mad"
However what i notice is, the moment you say "we are moving back to the country" they all reference back to the programme, "Escape to the country!" & then that quiets them & seems to meet a seal of approval! I think it is peoples perspection of the Uk in general that is the problem. Not saying its perfect but then where is? Least with the UK, it is (unfairly) painted in a bad light, so anything else is a bonus! rather than this unrealistic propaganda that Australia is where you should move to if you want a better life for you & your kids.....

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I think you are absolutely spot on, I always put the self effacing nature of the British down to being secure about their respective countries and not feeling the need to slap themselves on the back at every opportunity whether it be warranted or not. The problem is they go too far the other way. I ignore the Daily Mail rubbish and see what is really there, not some over sensationalised headline.
The one I really love is when someone say 'if you are lucky enough to have a job in the UK' I have heard that a few times. I guess they mean lucky like the 93% who DO have jobs compared to the 95% here :D
I like patriotism in moderation, when it is due and worthy not just endless tub thumping. Somewhere between here and the UK would be perfect.

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Or the 91% here!

America is in a far worse state financially - and if you watch the news, it may be about to get a whole lost worse - and yet Americans would never bash themselves or their country the way the Brits do. I've noticed with my friend that it's almost knee-jerk - he doesn't even realize he's doing it.

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A lot depends on what you are doing and where you are doing it! :p

I used to live in Surrey - a quiet village 5 miles from anywhere, nothing ever happened really. If I was out and about at my local towns during the day, life was relatively quiet and peaceful - no-one really interfered with my business. If I went to the same town at 9.30pm on a Friday night, to nip into Sainsbury's or something - it was a completely different animal.

If I had lived close to that town centre and people were making their way home over a weekend, via kicking my front fence, keying my car or throwing up on my doorstep, and running off with my wheelie bin, I would have a different impression of exactly the same place.

You can often exchange a few miles and no public transport for some peace - or you exchange convenience and proximity to "stuff" and thereby tons of other humans - and you sometimes pay a price.

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You can put list's, facts, figures etc out there all you like but I can tell you that where we live is a nice area, I walk our dog all times of day and night on my own, leave my front and back doors open when I want to and feel safe...so really unless you live in a bad area (and most countries have bad areas) then facts and figures are just for someone to have a job collecting this data and for saddo's to read them AND in all honesty a lot of countries would not publish true figures who would....except us....lol

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Yes, I agree it very much depends on the area where you live whether you have a higher risk of being mugged, your house broken into, assaulted by hoodies, have your bins emptied regularly or enjoy good social services. So, it's important to do good research before returnnig to the U.K.

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Well that obviously applies to anywhere in the world, there are plenty of places here I wouldn't live if you paid me. It might surprise some in the UK but muggings, assaults, break ins etc etc happen absolutely everywhere.

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Of course it doesn't help when serious incidents aren't even added to the stats. Some will know that we had a bad street fight right outside our house some months ago, although someone was stabbed and a bloke was carrying an axe a cop friend told me there was no incident report even though 2 cop cars attended. The figures look great when you don't add incidents.

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And here in the US, mass shootings happen so regularly that they rarely even make the news.

In the UK, I lived for a while in Hull - supposedly one of the worst most crime-ridden places in the UK. Let me tell you, it's nothing on some of the places over here. No meth addicts, no gun running, no gang shootings. But yes, a drunk kid in a hoodie keying a car is something else! :rolleyes:

I think Brits are generally only happy when they're miserable so it's best to leave them to it. Just nod and sympathize with the terrible stats rather than trying to argue. Everyone will be happier :)

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Yes I think I agree, there is an element of the British public that only seem happy if they can believe that the UK is the worst place in the world. I think you are either a negative person or a positive person, I like my glass half full ;)

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When I had my bag stolen in NYC the cops flat out refused to file a report because I had no ID (which was in my bag). Another lady was there (American) and they were saying she had to go to Washington DC or something ?

I bet in every country they massage the crime figures.

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I live in a great part of the UK.
It's not perfect, where is? But it's safe and beautiful.

I can only imagine that some expats have emigrated from rough or industrial areas in the UK to better areas, and when they come back to the UK they visit the rough / industrial areas because that's where their families live.

I travelled up the east coast of Australia several years ago and I have seen quite a bit of the US too.
In both of those countries I came across places where I would happily live, and places that I most definitely wouldn't :eek:
Exactly the same as the UK.

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Yes, well said Kapri. It just annoys me when someone says that the UK is the pits when it quite clearly isn't. I feel sorry for people if that is truly how they feel as they have obviously missed out on so much.

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well have to say having lived here in melbourne for the last 14 months for ME i have to say that here is most definately safer for a tradie and his tools

the way they just leave them on the back of the ute and all over building sites is really really strange for me someone who has worked all over london and kent over the last 20 years ++

would never leave any tools anywhere and am just about getting used to it over here and get some very strange looks when i start locking things up ( old habbits die hard )

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I have never seen anyone say the UK is the pits, just their own lives in their own part of the UK is the pits. No different to you saying Australia is shite based on the fact your bit of Australia might be. The economic situation in the UK can't be ignored though not even by the most fervent of UK supporters.

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Someone in my office just kind of summed it up. He said the UK is going to the dogs, but so is everywhere, just based on the fact that people don't seem to have any respect anywhere anymore, like blatantly dropping litter.

A good example of the lazy selfish attitude I've noticed is that when I was younger, if someone threw away a cigarette, they stepped on it to put it out. You NEVER see people doing that now, they just throw them away still burning. Which would be how the Kings Cross fire started incidentally.

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No, but it can be put into context. 8% unemployment isn't all that bad (certainly better than where I am) so when UK bashers say 'you'll be lucky to find a job' that is patently nonsense. Most people do have jobs.

Everyone I know in the UK is still taking holidays and buying stuff they want. None of them are rich but none are struggling either. Of course there are people who are worse off than they are, but there are an awful lot like them too.

I think what you call 'fervent supporters' are really just people looking for a bit of perspective - as the thread heading indicates.

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People have been saying that since time began. It was always better in 'the good old days' although of course, it really wasn't. I actually see a lot of improvements in the UK since I left along with some things that are worse.

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Sally ,
you may be meaning well , but you are so wrong ;
come and have a good look instead .

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I've got one friend who works for the council who has had to take a drop in pay. I also know some social workers who were made redundant - all now employed again. Otherwise I don't know anyone *personally* who has been affected job wise by the down turn, thank goodness.

I live in the south though and I believe there is a north / south divide.

I think things are up and down price wise. Fuel is astronomical :eek: Other things are cheap :thumbup:

Some people on this site don't seem to know the meaning of the word balance - there is good and bad in all countries and some countries will suit families more than others. Certainly I have sometimes seen the UK described in ways that make me laugh because I just don't see it.
Having said that, I also spend a lot of time on the Australia forum and I know people on there can make sweeping generalisations when they are not happy.

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I did. Have you been here?

I'm curious as to what I'm wrong about though.

I stated that all my friends and family have jobs and are going on vacations. That's true. One is here with us right now actually. Another just went to Colorado on a biking holiday. My mum is always off on trips and vacations. My brother was unemployed but just got a new job.

I also stated that the unemployment rate is lower in the UK than it is here - that's also true. It's about 2 points lower actually.

Not sure what's factually incorrect about what I wrote.

Edited to add: All the people I know are in the North - Manchester, Leeds and Cumbria.

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No , I have not been to the US for some years now ;
it's a hard life in the U.K. , unless you are seriously rich , IMHO .
May look good on the outside , if you visit for a short while ;
not everyone of us is well equipped for swimming in a pool of sharks and for survival of the fittest only .
Liberal capitalism is not about human evolution , it's about rich getting richer and about the others working more and longer ( if they can get the work ) for ever less money and in ever less secure enviroment .
Not to say that you won't love it in U.K. , sometimes even I have a nice time there .

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Wow, I've lost count of how many times I have heard it said. I have never and would never say that Australia is shite, if we couldn't go back to England I could still live here and be mostly happy.

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I have said many times that 2 or 3 % difference seems to some to make the difference between as you say being lucky to find a job and there being loads of work. There is even one bloke who loves saying how everyone in the UK is worried about losing their jobs, complete nonsense but some seem to thrive on it. Our friends are still working, still going on holiday, still driving their cars, in fact they appear to be living life as normal.

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You don't have to tell me - I live in the USA, bastion of capitalism :lol:

My impressions of the UK are not just those of someone just looking from the outside in. All my family and friends are there and we're close.

I do agree with you that having money makes life better but that applies everywhere in the world. Seriously Ray, there is so much that most Brits don't realize they have over there. Free healthcare being only the tip of the iceberg. The US is a harsh place that's for sure.

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How do you know? You don't live here. If you and your husband weren't self-employed (and therefore will not have to look for jobs when you move back) you might not be looking through those rose-coloured glasses of yours. Jobs are NOT easy to get and the majority of those who have become unemployed and are lucky enough to find jobs, are taking jobs well beneath their expected income level. I speak from personal experience and from the personal experiences of people here whom I have known over the past 11 months.

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Jobs might not be easy to find but of course most people are working. (she didn't say they are all working in their ideal well loved high paying jobs, just jobs) unemployment is at about 8% so "most people" ie 92% give or take for retired and stay at home parent are working.
It's not like here where they say we are at close to 20% unemployment and that doesn't count the whole section who fell off the roles when unemployment ran out. So here 80% give or take for retired and stay at home parent and a huge amount who fell off the roles, It's more like 75% or so are working, even that is "most people" have a job

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This the key. When you are heading back to the UK, for some reason it seems to be a lot harder & unsupported, than heading out to the other side of the world, without any support network.

When I left UK, 10 yrs ago, nobody questioned our move to Oz. Yet, everybody seems to have an opinion on us returning to the UK even though it is back to what we know & amongst our own support network of family friends. Is like going up the river the wrong way. Am actually challenging anyone now that calls me mad/crazy etc & most don't have answers. Is like they are pre-programmed to put the UK down, even those that haven't even been there!

It is a place we really took for granted with so much that was under our noses that we just didn't see or didn't want to see, when we were justifying our move to leave. I am not say it is perfect & could winge & moan about all things wrong but it is home & that is that.

Spoke to a lady in her 60's a couple of years ago. Left Uk in 70's from Essex To Oz because she wanted a better life for her boys, more open space & better opportunity & now her boys are older & she goes back travelling around the UK every year & said she realises now, that she didn't actually need to leave the UK for what she wanted. Was there all the time!

Takes a tremendous amount of courage, determination & optimiism (more than leaving the UK) & a well researched plan. Those that want to, will make it work. I believe you can achieve anything with the right mindset/attitude. Those that have succeeded in life are generally the one's who were told "it's not possible or it can't happen" but rather than fall at the first hurdle, went against the grain & made it happen. Good luck to all those heading "home""

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I work in the careers field, a lot of my clients are in the UK, and I'm very involved with the industry over there. That's how I know.

The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is just that. I tell you all my family and friends are doing well, you tell me you know lots of people who are struggling. None of it means anything in the larger scheme of things. The employment stats (time to fill positions, unemployment, underemployment etc) are the way we can gain perspective on the national picture.

Of course it's a bad situation when you are one of the people looking for work but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of people in the UK are working, so the way some Brits talk ("good luck ever finding work" is an exaggeration). Indeed, as a new immigrant, you were able to find work in about 6 months if I remember? That's pretty good. The average job search in the US right now takes 43 weeks (much longer than yours) and our published unemployment is almost 10% (it's actually nearer 20% if you take into account the people who have stopped looking). Even then, most people have jobs! 80% of the employable to be precise. Roughly the same applies in the UK because you also have uncounted people in your stats.

Neither am I looking through rose-colored glasses. Yes, I have taken the initiative to run my own career, but I am certainly not immune to downturns. The poor economy has been a real struggle for us and will continue to be in the UK.

Of course, none of it might matter anywhere if this US debt deal doesn't get done - we might all be living in cardboard boxes 6 months from now :lol:

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Amen!

What worries me is that even some of the people who have moved back seem to get negative quickly despite having nice lives. Perhaps I have to seal myself in a hermetic bubble to stay my usual happy self :lol:

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ha! ha! maybe the answer!! I wonder (will tell you in a few weeks!) whether what happens is that you live & breath the move for such a long time, that once you get back, it all becomes a bit of an anti-climax! think they say it takes 12-18 mths to settle & maybe the reverse culture shock is inevitable..... I think, you just got to know how to deal with it/combat it when it does! (for me, I will go for a walk in all that lovely GREEN countryside... or go to a pub & have a halfer lager!! or go & get a dose of history somewhere or just simply jump in the car & go & see a family member or close friend, just because I can!!)