JAJ

Your previous posts suggest that you are a U.S. citizen living in the United Kingdom, so it's not clear why you would see yourself as a non-resident alien. Unless you renounced your United States citizenship?

rebs

I remember reading that JJsOH and his wife did renounce their US citizenship recently, just before the price hike to do so

nun

The critical thing is that a rollover is not considered a distribution or income for treaty purposes. That's a pretty easy idea to accept for a 401k to IRA rollover as no tax is paid, but it's not as obvious for the IRA to ROTH as you have to include the rollover amount as income on your US tax return and pay tax on it, but still when applying the treaty the rollover is not treated as a distribution and so Article 17 isn't applicable. Article 18.1 is applicable as the money is being transferred from one qualifying plan to another and so the UK does not tax the rollover. So the owner of the IRA/ROTH now just applies US domestic law and pays US tax on the rollover.

dunroving

Just an update on the original topic for those who might be interested.

Following my 90-minute conversation with TIAA-CREF, I received the following message from them (not even the person I spoke with):

"Good evening, and thank you for your e-mail.

TIAA-CREF will not impede a request for you to rollover your funds to an IRA you might have or be able to establish elsewhere. Based on our legal department's interpretation, we simply cannot allow foreign residents to establish a new IRA with us. I apologize, but this requirement is not flexible and cannot be exceptioned"

I have waited two weeks and sent the following message to them today:

"Attn: JB:

This is a follow-up to our 90-minute phone conversation two weeks ago. As per my recorded notes, I was told to expect a letter within a few days, outlining the following, as explicitly agreed (and as recorded in writing during our phone conversation):

A written letter from TIAA-CREF citing "verbatim" the section of the Patriot Act that you are using to deny me the ability to open an IRA. This was the premise I was given on multiple emails from multiple TIAA-CREF employees but as I have pointed out, the relevant section of the Patriot Act does not require US residency.

Additionally, said letter to include "verbatim" the section of any written TIAA-CREF regulations preventing me from opening an IRA based on my current residence.

Please do not simply recite the vague statement such as the one below. If this is "based on our legal department's interpretation" please provide me "verbatim" your legal department’s stated interpretation, with reasoning and citing the actual legal case law or other legal code that leads them to this "interpretation". I specifically request justification why this action by TIAA-CREF is based on prevention of money laundering or terrorism, which is the stated premise of the Patriot Act.

Please be advised that unless this is provided to my satisfaction, I fully intend to pursue legal advice on this matter and to file a complaint against TIAA-CREF with the Customer Assistance Group of the Treasury Dept, and also with the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau and the Federal Reserve.

I would appreciate your prompt attention to this matter as I feel I have allowed sufficient time to receive the letter promised during my conversation with you.

Regards, DR".

I'll keep you updated.

dunroving

Further update:

On opening the TIAA-CREF Web page I noticed in blazing letters, "The Power of One. Roll over assets from former employers into a TIAA-CREF IRA." Then a button stating "Start my rollover".

So I clicked on it. It asked me if I was an existing customer and then asked me to sign in. So I did.

The form asking for particulars was already populated with my (Scotland) address, but gave me the opportunity to enter a "Mailing address" and click on a box saying " My home address is different than my mailing address". Clicking on this brought up additional fields to type my "residential address"

Both sets of address fields allowed a non-US address to be entered. Why set it u his way if they intend to tell non-residents "Computer says no"?"

[I realise this is of no interest to most people on MBTTUK but think it is worth posting so if anyone else ends up in this situation, they can find useful information on this thread]

durham_lad

I think it is very interesting and appreciate you taking the time to tell us about your experiences in this area.

J.JsOH

???????
If you are so interested then go back and read ALL of my previous posts.

J.JsOH

Spot on Rebs, we renounced Aug 2014. Didn't know that price rise was imminent, just fell lucky with that one.

J.JsOH

Thanks Nun and every one else that helped clear this up for me.

J.JsOH

We have become used now this kind of nonsense on forms. On the 401k website for my wife it allows a UK address but only a US phone number.

JAJ

On the contrary. This is very relevant to those moving outside the U.K.
From the perspective of these companies compliance departments, it's always easy to say no and cite (unspecified) "legal reasons". But if this generates complaints to, and unwelcome attention from, their regulators (and others), it may become easier to go back and really consider what the law says. And more importantly, does not say.

dunroving

Here is the response I got today:

"My name is EE, and I am a Customer Resolution Manager for TIAA-CREF. Your January 29 email regarding your request for additional information on the inability to establish a new Individual Retirement Account (IRA) as a foreign client has been brought to my attention.

I am sorry that you have not received a response to your request sooner. With regards to the US Patriot Act we are required to verify the information our clients provide in order to have a reasonable assurance that a customer is who they say they are. Our records do reflect your history as a participant and we value your business. While there is no question in this regards, that we can identify you as our customer, the limitation is with establishing an individual account while you reside outside of the United States.

While we are grateful that you considered TIAA-CREF to establish an IRA, we cannot issue an IRA to an individual who has a non-US residence address of record. Clients must have a valid US resident address in order to enroll in a TIAA-CREF IRA. A US mailing address while residing outside of the US is not sufficient to permit enrollment.

This restriction is a TIAA-CREF business decision. The restrictions are being implemented to help ensure that, to the greatest extent possible, the organization does not violate laws of foreign jurisdiction or contractual agreements protected by state laws. TIAA-CREF takes a prudent approach to risk management in all levels of the company. For these reasons we cannot provide any verbatim references to the business decisions, interpretations or any further reasoning that facilitated this limitation. We regret that this expectation was previously communicated.

Please feel free to contact me directly, via any of my contact information below, if you wish to further discuss this matter."

They seem to change the story as they go along. For over a year they stated that it was "The USA Patriot Act" that prevented me from opening an IRA. Buggers don't know their arse from their elbow.

nun

I wrote to TIAA about this and got a similar "jobs worth" reply. I'm going to be moving funds from my 401a with them soon, but will have leave some money in TIAA-Traditional. I now have to ask them about turning that money into an annuity as a foreign resident, that should be interesting.

nun

FYI I just spoke to TIAA-CREF and there is no problem turning TIAA-Traditional (or any of their retirement accounts) into lifetime annuities or setting up payout annuities as a foreign resident. The only problem seems to be opening that new account on the retail side of things rather than the institutional/insurance side.