Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Jul 15th 2011, 4:36 am
#1
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Soooo what do you think? I can see their point to an extent, but not sure a 4year lifetime cap is a good thing.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/.../?spt=hs&or=tn
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/.../?spt=hs&or=tn
Jul 15th 2011, 4:52 am
#2
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Posts: 2,847
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
As is so often the case - a hammer to crack a nut...
These proposals are too often, I fear, designed to demonstrate a certain position to his or her base, by that politician - irrespective of political colour.
I wonder about the law of unintended consequences...
... put a cap on welfare to cut spending...
... individuals and/or families (at least some...) become desperate - turn to crime or some other undesired way to survive... survive being the operative word here as there is no longer any welfare, and jobs aren't available.
... cost of crime, of increased policing, capacity in the prison system, of extra medical care, the administration of these extra resources etc etc - consumes some, perhaps all and more, of the money saved by cutting welfare.
This 'cycle' just described can take a long time to happen, so long in fact that most people don't connect the increased crime & costs to the earlier cut in welfare...
To me, it seems this debate over the way to solve the debt crisis including the debt ceiling is not about left or right politics, or even about money. It's about what kind of society this country should be 5, 10, 20 yrs down the road...
... and I know the 'smart money' reckons there won't be a default in the next couple of weeks, but remember - it only takes one vote to go against, and the deal is scuppered, the US defaults, and then we see an acceleration and deepening of the 2nd dip of the double dip recession I believe we're already in - let's see what the next 2 qtrs bring! I wonder what impact THAT will have on individual state budgets!
we live in interesting times...
Cheers
HTS
These proposals are too often, I fear, designed to demonstrate a certain position to his or her base, by that politician - irrespective of political colour.
I wonder about the law of unintended consequences...
... put a cap on welfare to cut spending...
... individuals and/or families (at least some...) become desperate - turn to crime or some other undesired way to survive... survive being the operative word here as there is no longer any welfare, and jobs aren't available.
... cost of crime, of increased policing, capacity in the prison system, of extra medical care, the administration of these extra resources etc etc - consumes some, perhaps all and more, of the money saved by cutting welfare.
This 'cycle' just described can take a long time to happen, so long in fact that most people don't connect the increased crime & costs to the earlier cut in welfare...
To me, it seems this debate over the way to solve the debt crisis including the debt ceiling is not about left or right politics, or even about money. It's about what kind of society this country should be 5, 10, 20 yrs down the road...
... and I know the 'smart money' reckons there won't be a default in the next couple of weeks, but remember - it only takes one vote to go against, and the deal is scuppered, the US defaults, and then we see an acceleration and deepening of the 2nd dip of the double dip recession I believe we're already in - let's see what the next 2 qtrs bring! I wonder what impact THAT will have on individual state budgets!
we live in interesting times...
Cheers
HTS
Jul 15th 2011, 1:24 pm
#3
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Posts: 1,277
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
My OH and I want to know where all the money is going! Yeah, we're financing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we keep bailing OTHER countries out following disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, etc., but why is that resulting in diminution of so much to our own people?! Welfare cuts? Medicare cuts? Benefits to states to keep their infrastructure intact? Salary cuts to firefighters, police & teachers, abolition of unions?! The various government(s) (local, state, federal) keep telling us there's no money - property taxes, sales tax, income tax don't really go down - they just change the pocket the dollars are taken from. 
Over the years, my OH and I bailed my daughter out several times because, although she worked like a dog making the money, she had no idea whatsoever about how to manage it. We loaned her money, prepared a budget for her to follow, paid her bills for her (out of her money), parceled out enough for her to live on, retired her debt to us and showed her how to plan ahead and keep things on an even keel. She still has trouble managing her money, but it's not like she hasn't been taught. WTF!
We feel our governments are the same - they just don't know how to manage the money they have! How do you teach what won't (not can't) be learned? How do you steal back the money that allows the upper crust to live like sultans while the rest of us pay for the privilege of working to keep them in the life they've become accustomed to? :curse:
Most USC's here blame it on the "Republicans" or the "Democrats" or on the "fat cats", not realizing that they've elected and put into office the very people who are misguiding us!
Guess I'd better get off this topic - my BP is rising by the nano-second as is my sense of futility. Besides, it may be a little off-topic from Michigan's 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Over the years, my OH and I bailed my daughter out several times because, although she worked like a dog making the money, she had no idea whatsoever about how to manage it. We loaned her money, prepared a budget for her to follow, paid her bills for her (out of her money), parceled out enough for her to live on, retired her debt to us and showed her how to plan ahead and keep things on an even keel. She still has trouble managing her money, but it's not like she hasn't been taught. WTF!
We feel our governments are the same - they just don't know how to manage the money they have! How do you teach what won't (not can't) be learned? How do you steal back the money that allows the upper crust to live like sultans while the rest of us pay for the privilege of working to keep them in the life they've become accustomed to? :curse:
Most USC's here blame it on the "Republicans" or the "Democrats" or on the "fat cats", not realizing that they've elected and put into office the very people who are misguiding us!
Guess I'd better get off this topic - my BP is rising by the nano-second as is my sense of futility. Besides, it may be a little off-topic from Michigan's 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Jul 15th 2011, 1:54 pm
#4
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Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Egg and Cress - your observations are probably not THAT off-topic - you ask a key question - where's all the money going? Knowing & doing something about it might help Michigan, other states, and the United States do something about it...
... and as you point out, the US voters elected to put these people in and enact their policies/manifestos...
... turkeys don't vote for Christmas, and typically people don't vote for tax raises, any more than congressmen & congresswomen vote for a particular solution to say, the debt ceiling crisis, knowing/believing that their 'base' (not the same as their constituents...) will vote them out of office at the next opportunity.
Bailing out other countries through IMF contributions and foreign aid represents a tiny pinprick of US budget spend in each year. There is a danger that a cause celeb can take focus away from the bigger ticket items. For example, the single biggest area of spend in the US budget is defence. Welfare, social security and related items together represent much more, but these are a collection of big items. And defence spending is set to RISE over the next few years, even as the US draws down its forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere. How is this happening? Well, a cynic might say that defence companies have lobbied hard directly and indirectly through campaign contributions etc, to make sure new weapons systems get built. Not all of these are needed... But since 1st Amendment rights have been extended to companies, a disproportionate spend can be made by one special interest group and the country/environment/poor/abused/ill who are often times on the other end of the debate, get screwed because they can't match the spend & effectiveness in lobbying...
... this kind of political funding & close involvement in other countries is either heavily regulated or illegal, and for good reason - a simplistic description would be legalised political corruption - but I'm not allowed to vote here, so 'what do I know'...!!!
It's a mess, and it will get worse before it gets better - 2 out of the 3 main ratings agencies have put the US on notice there's a 1 in 2 chance the US loses it's AAA rating. *When* it does (!), the value of the dollar will drop (get in to gold if you can!), the cost of borrowing for the US Govt will rise (the interest bill for this year alone is in the region of $200Bn!), interest rates will rise and we'll see the housing market, currently at 80% below it's peak activity level, drop further - the US economy will go in to recession... and then the Greek/Italian/Irish/Portuguese debt crisis will look like a walk in the park...
I'd like to take a leaf out of the lawmakers' book - write to my credit card companies and just tell them I took a vote and opted to raise my debt ceiling... if only!
So where does all the money go? Good question. Tax payers should be holding their representatives to account, but they(we) don't - too busy getting on with our lives with our collective thumb up our collective arse!
HTS
... and as you point out, the US voters elected to put these people in and enact their policies/manifestos...
... turkeys don't vote for Christmas, and typically people don't vote for tax raises, any more than congressmen & congresswomen vote for a particular solution to say, the debt ceiling crisis, knowing/believing that their 'base' (not the same as their constituents...) will vote them out of office at the next opportunity.
Bailing out other countries through IMF contributions and foreign aid represents a tiny pinprick of US budget spend in each year. There is a danger that a cause celeb can take focus away from the bigger ticket items. For example, the single biggest area of spend in the US budget is defence. Welfare, social security and related items together represent much more, but these are a collection of big items. And defence spending is set to RISE over the next few years, even as the US draws down its forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere. How is this happening? Well, a cynic might say that defence companies have lobbied hard directly and indirectly through campaign contributions etc, to make sure new weapons systems get built. Not all of these are needed... But since 1st Amendment rights have been extended to companies, a disproportionate spend can be made by one special interest group and the country/environment/poor/abused/ill who are often times on the other end of the debate, get screwed because they can't match the spend & effectiveness in lobbying...
... this kind of political funding & close involvement in other countries is either heavily regulated or illegal, and for good reason - a simplistic description would be legalised political corruption - but I'm not allowed to vote here, so 'what do I know'...!!!
It's a mess, and it will get worse before it gets better - 2 out of the 3 main ratings agencies have put the US on notice there's a 1 in 2 chance the US loses it's AAA rating. *When* it does (!), the value of the dollar will drop (get in to gold if you can!), the cost of borrowing for the US Govt will rise (the interest bill for this year alone is in the region of $200Bn!), interest rates will rise and we'll see the housing market, currently at 80% below it's peak activity level, drop further - the US economy will go in to recession... and then the Greek/Italian/Irish/Portuguese debt crisis will look like a walk in the park...
I'd like to take a leaf out of the lawmakers' book - write to my credit card companies and just tell them I took a vote and opted to raise my debt ceiling... if only!
So where does all the money go? Good question. Tax payers should be holding their representatives to account, but they(we) don't - too busy getting on with our lives with our collective thumb up our collective arse!
HTS
Jul 15th 2011, 2:27 pm
#5
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Location: Memphis
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Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
HTS – good to know we’re not the only ones to see more than what CNN/MSNBC/NBC/CBS/ABC news spews. (Don’t ever let anyone tell you we have ‘freedom of speech’ – it’s more like freedom of control!)
However, I get the same feeling when I read “letters to the editor” in our local daily paper; at first I’m heartened that others have grasped what’s happening (at least on the local level) and think, “Aha! Something’s finally going to get done!” But nothing ever comes of it.
We keep wondering when the line in the sand will be drawn and who’ll be there to defend it.
As regards girding for battle – don’t know about you, but we can’t afford $1500.00+ per oz for gold. All we can do is hunker down and hope the ill wind blows over us. Regarding lobbyists – don’t get me started! Thought our “change” president was going to change something in that area. HAH!
My OH can’t vote yet, but by Gawd, he pays taxes, so that should give him a say-so of some kind.
We’ve tried (in my name as I’m the registered voter) to contact our reps via e.mail (useless as none ever seems to get through), letters (snail-mail is ignored or gets “lost”), and no longer even TRY to telephone as the telephone tree and voice mail takes you in ever diminishing circles to nowhere-land. :curse:
Must go find another, happier thread – ranting and railing is hard on my psyche – but I (we)agree with everything you’ve said – Thanks!
(actually, I think I'll go stick my head in the sand for a while. 
)
E&C
However, I get the same feeling when I read “letters to the editor” in our local daily paper; at first I’m heartened that others have grasped what’s happening (at least on the local level) and think, “Aha! Something’s finally going to get done!” But nothing ever comes of it.
We keep wondering when the line in the sand will be drawn and who’ll be there to defend it.
As regards girding for battle – don’t know about you, but we can’t afford $1500.00+ per oz for gold. All we can do is hunker down and hope the ill wind blows over us. Regarding lobbyists – don’t get me started! Thought our “change” president was going to change something in that area. HAH!
My OH can’t vote yet, but by Gawd, he pays taxes, so that should give him a say-so of some kind.
We’ve tried (in my name as I’m the registered voter) to contact our reps via e.mail (useless as none ever seems to get through), letters (snail-mail is ignored or gets “lost”), and no longer even TRY to telephone as the telephone tree and voice mail takes you in ever diminishing circles to nowhere-land. :curse:
Must go find another, happier thread – ranting and railing is hard on my psyche – but I (we)agree with everything you’ve said – Thanks!
(actually, I think I'll go stick my head in the sand for a while. )E&C
Last edited by Egg and Cress; Jul 15th 2011 at 2:34 pm.
Jul 15th 2011, 6:26 pm
#6
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Posts: 2,847
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
This sand in to which you might stick your head... check first to see if it is the target of a special interest group - and make sure it hasn't donated to undesired causes... 
We can't afford to go gold either.
I think I might stick a pencil up each nostril, underpants on my head and just go "wibble!"
Take care!
HTS
We can't afford to go gold either.
I think I might stick a pencil up each nostril, underpants on my head and just go "wibble!"
Take care!
HTS
Jul 15th 2011, 6:29 pm
#7
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Posts: 2,847
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
E&C - This might cheer you up a little!!
Enjoy!
Cheers
HTS
Enjoy!
Cheers
HTS
Jul 15th 2011, 7:51 pm
#8
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Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Memphis
Posts: 1,277
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
This sand in to which you might stick your head... check first to see if it is the target of a special interest group - and make sure it hasn't donated to undesired causes...
We can't afford to go gold either.
I think I might stick a pencil up each nostril, underpants on my head and just go "wibble!"
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3...1g5po1_500.jpg
Take care!
HTS
We can't afford to go gold either.
I think I might stick a pencil up each nostril, underpants on my head and just go "wibble!"
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3...1g5po1_500.jpg
Take care!
HTS
Jul 15th 2011, 7:53 pm
#9
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Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Memphis
Posts: 1,277
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
E&C - This might cheer you up a little!!
http://www.articulate.com/rapid-elea...09/kidsart.gif
Enjoy!
Cheers
HTS
http://www.articulate.com/rapid-elea...09/kidsart.gif
Enjoy!
Cheers
HTS
Cute, though! Thanks....
Jul 15th 2011, 10:17 pm
#10
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
Posts: 61,698
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Ridiculous and unconstitutional. It is the responsibility with more to be the safety net for those with little or nothing.....and what about the mentally/physically challenged who cannot work....
Jul 15th 2011, 10:24 pm
#11
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Joined: Jun 2011
Location: Memphis
Posts: 1,277
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Jul 15th 2011, 10:24 pm
#12
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,105
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Most people that fall into that category are on SSI benefits.
Jul 17th 2011, 9:04 pm
#13
Just Joined
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 14
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Actually some comments on this post got me pondering about something ive pondered about before.
How much extra does it cost a country to be actually in a war compared to when that country is not at war.
Its not like the soldiers get laid off when they get back home....." oh sorry guys we are not at war right now so you need to be laid off"
They get paid regardless, they get fed regardless, a helicopter flying around in iraq gets the same gas mileage as one flying around a us base.
i know there is obviously a difference in cost but id be interested to know by how much.
How much extra does it cost a country to be actually in a war compared to when that country is not at war.
Its not like the soldiers get laid off when they get back home....." oh sorry guys we are not at war right now so you need to be laid off"
They get paid regardless, they get fed regardless, a helicopter flying around in iraq gets the same gas mileage as one flying around a us base.
i know there is obviously a difference in cost but id be interested to know by how much.
Jul 17th 2011, 9:24 pm
#14
Septic Sprout
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 7,993
Re: Michigan may pass 4 year cap on welfare benefits.
Actually some comments on this post got me pondering about something ive pondered about before.
How much extra does it cost a country to be actually in a war compared to when that country is not at war.
Its not like the soldiers get laid off when they get back home....." oh sorry guys we are not at war right now so you need to be laid off"
They get paid regardless, they get fed regardless, a helicopter flying around in iraq gets the same gas mileage as one flying around a us base.
i know there is obviously a difference in cost but id be interested to know by how much.
How much extra does it cost a country to be actually in a war compared to when that country is not at war.
Its not like the soldiers get laid off when they get back home....." oh sorry guys we are not at war right now so you need to be laid off"
They get paid regardless, they get fed regardless, a helicopter flying around in iraq gets the same gas mileage as one flying around a us base.
i know there is obviously a difference in cost but id be interested to know by how much.
