DayPerson

It has been a stressful few months, mums dementia has worsened and she has had multiple infections (UTI, kidney and now chest including two hospital stays).


We applied for a care assessment and the council said because we still own a property in France that we are self funding. We have the property in France on the market but it is not likely to sell due to it's location and the fact our neighbour tried to sell their home two years ago and couldn't.


Since then dads stress levels have gone up and it's affected all of us to the point that I am seeking counselling and struggling to find employment.
He had a week at the house in France last week, saw the dementia group in Bergerac (house is in Limousin) and came back saying he intends to take mum back there next year.


My question, is there any help we can have (financially and supportive) to keep us in the UK. I think I read you can have deferred payment on care, but what happens if the house isn't sold, mum dies and dad returns to France?


I feel dad is not looking for help and support (if there is any) in the UK and keeps thinking that France will be the best option. I disagree, mum and dad do not speak French (and dementia is bad enough when you live in your native country) and her condition has worsened (and I doubt she can travel).


Sorry for the rant but I just want to find out if there is any help and support for us in the UK.

christmasoompa

Hi, sorry to hear that your mum's condition has worsened.

I think it would be worth you re-reading your previous thread - http://britishexpats.com/forum/movin...france-903448/. There was quite a bit of info in that thread about what you may be able to get in the UK and how to do so.

Best of luck.

EuroTrash

What financial support does he expect to be able to access in France, why does he think France is a better option? AFAIK, any aid he receives from the French government towards nursing/care home fees will eventually have to be repaid in full, whereas in the UK there is at least a threshold isn't there? although I can't remember now whether TM increased it or decreased it or what in the end, there were so many U-turns.
Unless he can get help from a private charity in France, I think he'll find that France is far more hard line than the UK in putting the full financial responsibility for caring for aged parents onto the immediate family (ie you and your dad), not onto the country's taxpayers.

DayPerson

I wasn't aware of that. I think it's just a knee jerk reaction to not getting free help in the UK because of having the house in France.

My point to him is if he ran out of money (only has mums pension and we're hoping an app will be a success) then the French government won't give him anything because he's not paid into it.

Do you have the link to paying for social care in France so I can show dad it won't be free?

quiltman

Did you ever talk to Help The Aged? If so, what did they say? I know in the UK you can defer council care home fees by the council taking a charge on your property to be repaid when the property is sold after death. The surviving spouse is allowed to live in the house until he/she dies but the property must then be sold to repay the council. It also makes a difference whether the property is in joint names or tenants in common. If in joint names then I believe it is classed as being an asset of either one of them i.e the total property value is assessed as an asset , but if held as tenants in common, then each owns 50% seperately from the other so only 50% of the value is classed as the assets of the claiming party so the other partners 50% ownership cannot be used in calculating the claimants assets value. It is quite complex and of course does not apply to the portion of private care home fees above what the council will pay anyway. How the heck this applies to an overseas property I do not know but I presume the council arguement would be that you have a realisable asset (how realisable in practice does not matter to the council) so you have to be self funding until such time as you can show assets have dropped below the qualifying level. (£16,000??) I cannot see how you could claim free help in France if you still own a property there as presumably the French system also has a qualifying assets level - or does it? I think a consultation with HTA , citizens Advice or a solicitor specialising in property law is called for , plus finding out what, if anything, your Dad could claim if he did move the pair of them back to France. I wish you well in sorting out this complex and worrying matter. This might be of interest France - Elderly Care | ExpatFocus.com This one is a few years old but if it was my parents I would be very worried! https://www.frenchentree.com/france-...are-home-fees/ It was interesting to read the comment from HalfPint on 10 March 2014 so it looks like there is some hope!

SanDiegogirl

For how long did you live in France?

Were you parents retired when they moved to France seeing how they did not pay into either the Social Security or medical system?

If retired, then do they not have some retirement funds in the UK to live on?

DayPerson

Yes it is in joint names and our assets are under the threshold but because the council says we have the house in France, we are self funding (and the house is very remote and I doubt would sell for 1 Euro. Remember in France unlike the UK houses don't tend to sell better because they are cheaper, the French aren't persuaded by reductions in the same way we are. Our neighbour tried to sell 2 years ago but couldn't.)

My question, we stay in the UK and our inheritance and savings run out but the house in France isn't sold, then what happens? Can the council still say because we have the house in France which hasn't sold, we still have to pay even with no money or what kind of financial help would we be entitled to?

EuroTrash

Lots and lots of links about it if you google, eg

Le coût des soins en EHPAD et en USLD (unités de soins de longue durée) | Pour les personnes âgées

Une lourde charge financière pour les familles | France Alzheimer | Union Nationale des Associations France Alzheimer

Alzheimer : comment financer ?

When it mentions certain costs (ie medical treatment including examinations and medications but not accommodation or social care) being covered by your Assurance Maladie, this means the state healthcare system. See my comment on the other thread - is your mum on a UK state retirement pension? If not, and if she isn't eligible to be accepted into the state healthcare system because household income is below the minimum threshold for legal residence in France, these costs would not be covered. (Ironically - if your mum is on an S1, it would in fact be the UK that is footing the bill for the medical element of her healthcare in France!)

Basically France has similar rules to the UK in that any costs that the state pays on your behalf because you can't at the moment, are recovered afterwards from the sale of the house. So if you meet the residence requirements for France, and you can negotiate the red tape, then yes you would bypass the hurdle of the UK refusing to pay now and collect later because your home is abroad so they have no mechanism to ensure collection. But the end result would be the same, the house will have to go if that's the only way you can repay the costs.

One of the links above quotes around 2k a month for care costs payable by yourselves, which is the same figure Tweedpipe suggested on your thread on the France section, so that seems to be the ball park figure.

In these sad circumstances the house is an albatross round your necks. If your dad sells it for 1€ or even gives it away, the NHS will lose out (on paper at least) but you yourselves will be in a far better position. The UK is not going to pay on your behalf while you have a house in France and no assets in the UK. France is not going to pay on your behalf and let you keep the house afterwards if they haven't been repaid.

I'm desperately sorry for all of you, I can't even imagine what it must like living with this all day every day, but it's been going on for so long and you can't let it keep dragging on, you have to face the facts. You want the UK to help you but by owning this house, you're making yourselves ineligible for assistance. Obvious solution.... ?

EuroTrash

Actually it seems to be even more complicated than that, because I just read this
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information...ion-of-assets/
Sorry to add one more complication but I think you need to get advice on disposing of the French house. Certainly make sure you have proof of how long the house has been on the market, what steps you've taken to sell it, etc.

dmu

Hi, I didn't intend to join this thread, but a quick check in OP's other threads showed that this goes way back to Spring 2015 and the OP hasn't responded to the question in the France forum. Does this mean that the OP's parents haven't put it on the market since then?

Pulaski

The issue is usually related to selling, or giving, the property or other assets to a friend or relative, or just squandering the money, by a mechanism such as gambling or a fancy cruise, but selling a house to an unrelated third party should resolve the problem. .... Therefore I wonder if it would be possible to put the property up for public auction because (i) it would get rid of the property, and (ii) pretty much by definition it would be at "the fair market price", even if that was only €1,000.

Editha

On the house, just a couple of points.

Firstly, the obvious thing to do is ask the local authority what steps they would regard as reasonable, as regards disposing of the property in France.

Secondly, the local authority cannot place a charge on a property in France, which is why deferring care home fees is not an option.

However, I'd like to know whether the OP has actually had a financial assessment done by the authority, or just been given advice over the phone? In the OP's place I would insist on a financial assessment being done. And I'd consider an appeal if refused help because of the house in France. If the value of the house cannot be realised because it is unsellable, then, arguably, it should be given a value of nil in the assessment.

EuroTrash

Good thinking Pulaski.
There is what looks like quite a good article about it here Comment faire pour vendre aux enchères un bien immobilier - Achat-Vente - Le Particulier that confirms exactly what you said, that whatever price you get at a public auction will be accepted by the French authorities as a fair price, presumably the UK authorities would do the same since it would be hard to justify not accepting it. It seems that all you need to do is go to a notaire, tell him you want to auction your house, get a valuation done, and hope someone buys it. Selling at auction also cuts out a lot of the red tape because the buyer doesn't have the same right of retraction that they normally do. So, a number of advantages. If that's the route they decide to take.
Very few houses are unsellable if the price is attractive enough. The OP's parents bought it, they don't seem to have any objection to living in it, it obviously does have its attractions.

dmu

I was looking for such a site and you beat me to it!

angie_329

yo You need some independent legal advice as to what can be done... have you gone to citizens advice bureau yet? There will be someone who can advise but you may need to keep at it to find the right person. Then you can take Dad along to have things explained to him.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ab...advice/advice/


also do ring Age Concern ( now Age uk) as they may also know the answer
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/
freephone 0800 055 6112