Legal problems - can anyone help?
Jun 27th 2004, 6:59 am
#16
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Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 46
Quixy, glad you made it back in one piece!
I take it you weren't working in NL?
It doesn't matter though - you paid your NI contributions in Denmark and Denmark is an EU member, as is NL. So you have a gap in your contributions, which you might want to top up voluntarily once you start working here again. Ask your local tax office for details. They should have a leaflet on this.
If you were married to a Dutch man and he was working you may be able to claim part of his Dutch contributions towards your pension rights.
Either way, you ARE entitled to be considered habitually resident under the Swaddling ruling so you should be able to claim income-based JSA.
The only other way to get out of any benefit loophole is to take a temp job for a week and pay a Class 1 or Class 2 contribution through your employer.
Definitely go and see your MP. I'm doing the same this week myself, although ironically I now have a job interview lined at last! I'm not stopping the fight though...
Be prepared for loads of others problems such as trying to reopen a bank account. I can help loads on these sorts of issues.
And if you fancy a good bitch about life in NL, keep in touch!
I take it you weren't working in NL?
It doesn't matter though - you paid your NI contributions in Denmark and Denmark is an EU member, as is NL. So you have a gap in your contributions, which you might want to top up voluntarily once you start working here again. Ask your local tax office for details. They should have a leaflet on this.
If you were married to a Dutch man and he was working you may be able to claim part of his Dutch contributions towards your pension rights.
Either way, you ARE entitled to be considered habitually resident under the Swaddling ruling so you should be able to claim income-based JSA.
The only other way to get out of any benefit loophole is to take a temp job for a week and pay a Class 1 or Class 2 contribution through your employer.
Definitely go and see your MP. I'm doing the same this week myself, although ironically I now have a job interview lined at last! I'm not stopping the fight though...
Be prepared for loads of others problems such as trying to reopen a bank account. I can help loads on these sorts of issues.
And if you fancy a good bitch about life in NL, keep in touch!
Jun 27th 2004, 10:43 am
#17
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Joined: Feb 2004
Location: land of the kiwi.
Posts: 885
Originally posted by loubol
Quixy, glad you made it back in one piece!
I take it you weren't working in NL?
It doesn't matter though - you paid your NI contributions in Denmark and Denmark is an EU member, as is NL. So you have a gap in your contributions, which you might want to top up voluntarily once you start working here again. Ask your local tax office for details. They should have a leaflet on this.
If you were married to a Dutch man and he was working you may be able to claim part of his Dutch contributions towards your pension rights.
Either way, you ARE entitled to be considered habitually resident under the Swaddling ruling so you should be able to claim income-based JSA.
The only other way to get out of any benefit loophole is to take a temp job for a week and pay a Class 1 or Class 2 contribution through your employer.
Definitely go and see your MP. I'm doing the same this week myself, although ironically I now have a job interview lined at last! I'm not stopping the fight though...
Be prepared for loads of others problems such as trying to reopen a bank account. I can help loads on these sorts of issues.
And if you fancy a good bitch about life in NL, keep in touch!
Quixy, glad you made it back in one piece!
I take it you weren't working in NL?
It doesn't matter though - you paid your NI contributions in Denmark and Denmark is an EU member, as is NL. So you have a gap in your contributions, which you might want to top up voluntarily once you start working here again. Ask your local tax office for details. They should have a leaflet on this.
If you were married to a Dutch man and he was working you may be able to claim part of his Dutch contributions towards your pension rights.
Either way, you ARE entitled to be considered habitually resident under the Swaddling ruling so you should be able to claim income-based JSA.
The only other way to get out of any benefit loophole is to take a temp job for a week and pay a Class 1 or Class 2 contribution through your employer.
Definitely go and see your MP. I'm doing the same this week myself, although ironically I now have a job interview lined at last! I'm not stopping the fight though...
Be prepared for loads of others problems such as trying to reopen a bank account. I can help loads on these sorts of issues.
And if you fancy a good bitch about life in NL, keep in touch!
Hi,
wondering if you can help me atall. I have a daughter of 15 who needs to get back to her school as she is in the middle of her exams, and a 5 yr old who has a brain disorder. I am wanting to return from New Zealand ,I have only been here since end of Feb.
Would you have any idea if we would be housed in our home town or get any financial help atall? I can't work as have the 5 yr old who needs me at home.
Any advice would be so helpful. My husband would be staying in New Zealand on his own, as we would be separating. We don't have residency here as yet.
Thanks
D
Jun 27th 2004, 11:15 am
#18
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Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 46
Originally posted by devonchick
Hi,
wondering if you can help me atall. I have a daughter of 15 who needs to get back to her school as she is in the middle of her exams, and a 5 yr old who has a brain disorder. I am wanting to return from New Zealand ,I have only been here since end of Feb.
Would you have any idea if we would be housed in our home town or get any financial help atall? I can't work as have the 5 yr old who needs me at home.
Any advice would be so helpful. My husband would be staying in New Zealand on his own, as we would be separating. We don't have residency here as yet.
Thanks
D
Hi,
wondering if you can help me atall. I have a daughter of 15 who needs to get back to her school as she is in the middle of her exams, and a 5 yr old who has a brain disorder. I am wanting to return from New Zealand ,I have only been here since end of Feb.
Would you have any idea if we would be housed in our home town or get any financial help atall? I can't work as have the 5 yr old who needs me at home.
Any advice would be so helpful. My husband would be staying in New Zealand on his own, as we would be separating. We don't have residency here as yet.
Thanks
D
Jun 27th 2004, 12:29 pm
#19
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7
Thanks for all replies and advice....
But rather than use 3rd party website I found this on DWPs own !!!!
The 'Swaddling' judgement
7.130 On 25 February 1999 the European Court of Justice gave judgement in a case about the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a UK national returning to the UK from a period of residence in another European Union state (ECJ: C-90/97, 'The Swaddling case'). The case involved the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a claim for IS. The Court decided that a person with habitual residence in the UK who leaves and becomes habitually resident in another Member State and then returns to resume UK residence is habitually resident immediately on return.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/housingbenefit...ts/ptc_07b.asp
Fax will be on JSA teamleaders (supreme bitch) desk for Monday Morning!! (Have u noticed how many of these people in these type of jobs seem to actually hate people and like to deny?!!!)
xxxx
Quixy
Ps Loubol I'm looking for new friends since I got back... so I'd love to meet up and bitch about NL!!! I am in Cheadle, Cheshire so I guess your not that far away?!
But rather than use 3rd party website I found this on DWPs own !!!!
The 'Swaddling' judgement
7.130 On 25 February 1999 the European Court of Justice gave judgement in a case about the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a UK national returning to the UK from a period of residence in another European Union state (ECJ: C-90/97, 'The Swaddling case'). The case involved the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a claim for IS. The Court decided that a person with habitual residence in the UK who leaves and becomes habitually resident in another Member State and then returns to resume UK residence is habitually resident immediately on return.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/housingbenefit...ts/ptc_07b.asp
Fax will be on JSA teamleaders (supreme bitch) desk for Monday Morning!! (Have u noticed how many of these people in these type of jobs seem to actually hate people and like to deny?!!!)
xxxx
Quixy
Ps Loubol I'm looking for new friends since I got back... so I'd love to meet up and bitch about NL!!! I am in Cheadle, Cheshire so I guess your not that far away?!
Jun 27th 2004, 12:49 pm
#20
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 711
Devonchick: I don't think you will need to do the Habitual Residence Test as in reality you were only temporarily out of the country 4-5 months. I think you have to be gone for more than 6 months or a year. Anyway coming back as a single parent you should be able to claim for a lot.
As soon as you get back contact you local housing authority and housing associations - you are a single aprent with a child who is disabled, therefore you should be able to get somehting right away.
You will be entitled to child benefit, disability and mobility living allowance and carers allowance for you as you need to stay home and care for your child.
Probably the first thing that you should do is go straight to your citizens advice bureau and they should be able to tell you everythign that you are entitled to and help with the forms. Make sure that you have proof of your sons medical condition.
Make sure you get in your seperation agreement a good amount for child support from your husband as well.
Loubol and Quixy: So if I am in the States coming back to the UK after being away for 8 years do I qualify as passing the HRT under Swaddling. In the web site that I quoted it just said any UK citizen returning but in the DWP web site it states UK national returning from the EU???
I'm going to be arriving back mid August and will start my new job early September but would like to claim for the period inbetween as money will be a bit scare and will have to wait until the end of the month for my first wages. Should I go and register at the job centre as you said Lobol within the first week to get my NI contributions paid?
As soon as you get back contact you local housing authority and housing associations - you are a single aprent with a child who is disabled, therefore you should be able to get somehting right away.
You will be entitled to child benefit, disability and mobility living allowance and carers allowance for you as you need to stay home and care for your child.
Probably the first thing that you should do is go straight to your citizens advice bureau and they should be able to tell you everythign that you are entitled to and help with the forms. Make sure that you have proof of your sons medical condition.
Make sure you get in your seperation agreement a good amount for child support from your husband as well.
Loubol and Quixy: So if I am in the States coming back to the UK after being away for 8 years do I qualify as passing the HRT under Swaddling. In the web site that I quoted it just said any UK citizen returning but in the DWP web site it states UK national returning from the EU???
I'm going to be arriving back mid August and will start my new job early September but would like to claim for the period inbetween as money will be a bit scare and will have to wait until the end of the month for my first wages. Should I go and register at the job centre as you said Lobol within the first week to get my NI contributions paid?
Jun 27th 2004, 1:19 pm
#21
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7
Sorry Bromleygirl I am not a lawyer, but I am guessing European is key word from ECJ ruling... this only has jursidiction within the member states so DWP might have upper hand...
I think its worth writing a letter to Citizens Advice Bureau NOW! You know how long these things take... and if u get writing letters now - it might be in place for you when you return.
If I can help (somehow!) please let me know.
Now into battle with writing that fax!!!!
I'll post copy here when I'm done!
I think its worth writing a letter to Citizens Advice Bureau NOW! You know how long these things take... and if u get writing letters now - it might be in place for you when you return.
If I can help (somehow!) please let me know.
Now into battle with writing that fax!!!!
I'll post copy here when I'm done!
Jun 27th 2004, 2:27 pm
#22
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7
Thank you for your letter dated 25 June informing that “I’m not entitled to JSA at the moment, due to failing the Habitual Residence Test�. However, I have great pleasure in informing you that according to the Swaddling Judgement, you’re wrong. Your own website states:
On 25 February 1999 the European Court of Justice gave judgement in a case about the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a UK national returning to the UK from a period of residence in another European Union state (ECJ: C-90/97, 'The Swaddling case'). The Court decided that a person with habitual residence in the UK who leaves and becomes habitually resident in another Member State and then returns to resume UK residence is habitually resident immediately on return.
Therefore I am giving you until 5pm Tuesday 29 June to review your decision. Should I hear nothing from you by the time stated, you can be certain that the following actions will be taken:
1. Rt Hon Patsy Calton MP will be informed of this
2. Manchester Metro News Newspaper will be informed of this
3. An appeal will be lodged with the DWP, according to GL24
The above actions are preliminary: you can also be certain that I will use all means and resources available to me, to dispute your decision - and in doing so, highlight yet another case of bureaucratic incompetence.
Feel free to cut + paste!!!!
On 25 February 1999 the European Court of Justice gave judgement in a case about the application of the Habitual Residence Test on a UK national returning to the UK from a period of residence in another European Union state (ECJ: C-90/97, 'The Swaddling case'). The Court decided that a person with habitual residence in the UK who leaves and becomes habitually resident in another Member State and then returns to resume UK residence is habitually resident immediately on return.
Therefore I am giving you until 5pm Tuesday 29 June to review your decision. Should I hear nothing from you by the time stated, you can be certain that the following actions will be taken:
1. Rt Hon Patsy Calton MP will be informed of this
2. Manchester Metro News Newspaper will be informed of this
3. An appeal will be lodged with the DWP, according to GL24
The above actions are preliminary: you can also be certain that I will use all means and resources available to me, to dispute your decision - and in doing so, highlight yet another case of bureaucratic incompetence.
Feel free to cut + paste!!!!
Jun 27th 2004, 7:42 pm
#23
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Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 46
Originally posted by bromleygirl
Loubol and Quixy: So if I am in the States coming back to the UK after being away for 8 years do I qualify as passing the HRT under Swaddling. In the web site that I quoted it just said any UK citizen returning but in the DWP web site it states UK national returning from the EU???
I'm going to be arriving back mid August and will start my new job early September but would like to claim for the period inbetween as money will be a bit scare and will have to wait until the end of the month for my first wages. Should I go and register at the job centre as you said Lobol within the first week to get my NI contributions paid?
Loubol and Quixy: So if I am in the States coming back to the UK after being away for 8 years do I qualify as passing the HRT under Swaddling. In the web site that I quoted it just said any UK citizen returning but in the DWP web site it states UK national returning from the EU???
I'm going to be arriving back mid August and will start my new job early September but would like to claim for the period inbetween as money will be a bit scare and will have to wait until the end of the month for my first wages. Should I go and register at the job centre as you said Lobol within the first week to get my NI contributions paid?
When you return the following will apply: if you are living alone, you should qualify for income-based JSA if you have no other means of support. If you apply for contribution-based JSA you will not get it unless you have worked for a minimum of one week AND paid a minimum of one Class 1 or Class 2 NI contribution - so this would depend on whether the US has a reciprocal benefits agreement with the US (which I have no idea about).
I'm planning to see my MP asap about this anomaly as it seems unfair that if you have paid contributions abroad that can be "imported" you still can't claim contribution-based JSA until you have worked in the UK. I'm planning to fight this all the way to the ECJ, because this is how the UK how has interpreted the EC regulation. I'll post info as soon as I get a copy of the UK guidelines.
Either way, it's still in your interest to sign on when you get back so you get NI credits. You also need to contact your local tax office and get Form P86 to fill in to let the Inland Revenue know you are back so you can get back into the system. They will alomost certainly return the form to you immediately, telling you to only send it in once you start work, but do it anyway. And watch out for the trick question no. 12 about claiming to be not domiciled in the UK - it's a nasty double negative and the answer should always be no. It's the IR's equivalent to the habitual residency test so watch out for it!
Jun 27th 2004, 8:13 pm
#24
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Thanks Loubol for the tips.
I will definitley sign on for the income based job seekers allowance and contact the I.R.
I start my new job in September and want to make sure that when I am paid that I am not stuck on BR tax code. I want to make sure that my tax code for the year is adjusted correctly to allow for the working families tax credit and the child tax credit as I have 2 children.
Keep us updated on what you find out
I will definitley sign on for the income based job seekers allowance and contact the I.R.
I start my new job in September and want to make sure that when I am paid that I am not stuck on BR tax code. I want to make sure that my tax code for the year is adjusted correctly to allow for the working families tax credit and the child tax credit as I have 2 children.
Keep us updated on what you find out
Jun 28th 2004, 1:29 pm
#25
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Update time again: I've got an appointment to see my local MP (Christine Russell, Labour, Chester) next Friday (9 July) about the EC regulation 1408/71 loophole. On request of the constituency secretary, I e-mailed my MP's parliamentary researcher with a summary of my query so she can prepare a bit in advance before we meet. Plus I said these guidelines were preventing many returning expats from accessing contribution-based benefits, just so she knows it's lots of people who are being affected.
I'll keep you all posted on what Mrs Russell says to me.
I'll keep you all posted on what Mrs Russell says to me.
Jun 28th 2004, 1:33 pm
#26
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That's great Loubol
Well done - hopefully it will highlight the injustice that is being committed against returning ex-pats.
Well done - hopefully it will highlight the injustice that is being committed against returning ex-pats.
Jun 29th 2004, 10:44 pm
#27
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Posts: 7
Letter arrived today!! They reversed there decision = I won = We Won!!!!!!!!!
Nice one Girls!!! Couldn't of done it without your advice and support in here´: Respect!
I will still take this to CAB as I trust the DWP 'bout has far as I can throw them - they need to get this on there website asap so other expats don't get stung.
Loubol you stand ur ground there girl - and we'll be celebrating togther soon
to us!!!xxxxxxxxxxx
Quixy
Last edited by quixy; Jun 29th 2004 at 10:46 pm.
Jun 29th 2004, 10:48 pm
#28
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Posts: 885
Originally posted by loubol
Are you British? If so, you should qualify for benefits under the above ruling and your kids should be entitled to schooling. Not sure about housing rights for you - it might be helpful to draw up a separation agreement with your husband so that you can prove to your local authority that you have not made yourself intentionally homeless. They probably won't offer you any accommodation though until you actually return and go and see them in person. I see no reason why you shouldn't get rehoused in your home town though - that's where your family ties etc are.
Are you British? If so, you should qualify for benefits under the above ruling and your kids should be entitled to schooling. Not sure about housing rights for you - it might be helpful to draw up a separation agreement with your husband so that you can prove to your local authority that you have not made yourself intentionally homeless. They probably won't offer you any accommodation though until you actually return and go and see them in person. I see no reason why you shouldn't get rehoused in your home town though - that's where your family ties etc are.
Thanks so much!
your info has spurred me on to make proper enquiries via local housing and finances. Hopefully will get some replies soon.
Jul 6th 2004, 3:14 pm
#29
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Time for another small update.
I went to sign on today and while there asked to see the senior bloke who's been handling my claim. He sent me a copy of the regulations 3 weeks ago and the same day asked the Overseas Directorate to send me a copy of the UK guidelines they use to interpret the regulations. Apparently they had assured him they would contact me.
Anyway, when I saw him today, I said I had heard nothing at all and only have 1 week left in which to prepare my appeal... Off he went to make a phone call and back he came to say the OD had posted me the guidelines on 30 June - a full 12 days after he had made the request to them. I still haven't received them and it's a week since they were posted!
Gah!
I told him I want them by Friday morning as I'm seeing my MP then. He said if they haven't arrived by Thursday to phone him again and he'll get them by fax for me so I can pick them up on Friday morning. My dole mole also told me that the UK apparently interprets the EC regulation more generously than other EU countries, which are even stricter in terms of how long you must work and pay contributions before you can claim dole based on your overseas contributions.
I pointed out to him that the guidelines discriminate against expats who have paid their contributions elsewhere in the EU because it stops them claiming contributions-based JSA on their return (there is nothing in the regulation about needing to work in your home country first before claiming). And I told him I planned to appeal on those grounds and take it as far as I could. I just hope it doesn't take me as long to win this fight as the 10 years it took Swaddling!
He was really nice actually and quite helpful and said I should tell my MP to ask questions to the Secretary of State for the DWP rather than complaining to the local Jobcentre...
More soon.
I went to sign on today and while there asked to see the senior bloke who's been handling my claim. He sent me a copy of the regulations 3 weeks ago and the same day asked the Overseas Directorate to send me a copy of the UK guidelines they use to interpret the regulations. Apparently they had assured him they would contact me.
Anyway, when I saw him today, I said I had heard nothing at all and only have 1 week left in which to prepare my appeal... Off he went to make a phone call and back he came to say the OD had posted me the guidelines on 30 June - a full 12 days after he had made the request to them. I still haven't received them and it's a week since they were posted!
Gah!
I told him I want them by Friday morning as I'm seeing my MP then. He said if they haven't arrived by Thursday to phone him again and he'll get them by fax for me so I can pick them up on Friday morning. My dole mole also told me that the UK apparently interprets the EC regulation more generously than other EU countries, which are even stricter in terms of how long you must work and pay contributions before you can claim dole based on your overseas contributions.
I pointed out to him that the guidelines discriminate against expats who have paid their contributions elsewhere in the EU because it stops them claiming contributions-based JSA on their return (there is nothing in the regulation about needing to work in your home country first before claiming). And I told him I planned to appeal on those grounds and take it as far as I could. I just hope it doesn't take me as long to win this fight as the 10 years it took Swaddling!
He was really nice actually and quite helpful and said I should tell my MP to ask questions to the Secretary of State for the DWP rather than complaining to the local Jobcentre...
More soon.
Jul 6th 2004, 3:16 pm
#30
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PS: is it any wonder I've now decided to go self-employed, lol?
