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I have to leave this place

I have to leave this place

Old Jul 14th 2007, 9:27 pm
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by TraceyW
ShozinOz you really do come out with some glimpses of sheer inspirational thought don't you? The above is so true, just a damn costly and emotional experience.

Can I just ask you, as you are a psychologist, about something that has been mentioned on this thread? This thing about "belonging", or rather in us "homesickers", a feeling of not "belonging". I have been lead to believe that a sense of belonging will not come from a place, but must come from within ourselves. Is that how you see it?
Thank you TW.

I believe, for the large part, yes - you are right. The environment is of course important in making us feel attached to a place (this is a little different but they may appear the same). If I felt like I 'belonged' in the UK, then moved to Australia and after 3 years did not feel anything like this, then my sense of 'belonging' may be more linked to a culture. But when we are in foreign lands, it is easy to think back, rosily, that we would feel belonging if we returned to where we 'belong'. After all, we spend 20-30-40 years socialising in one country, then move to somewhere very different. But many of us, if we are honest, never really felt that we 'belonged' in the first place - that may be partly why we moved.

My thinking is not so much shaped by being a psychologist as by Buddhist teachings. These teach, among many things, that everything is impermanent. We like to think of things as permanent (wife, children, home, things), thinking that is more comforting. In fact when we realise things are impermanent (as I started to when my mother died when I was 19), we start to realise what is important. Switch off the TV and play with my daughter - that kind of thing. Another thing that features in the Dharma is attachment. When we become attached to things (people, things, places), our mind almost literally seems glued to them. We crave them. When I craved 'home', my head was in another time and place; I was not present. Staying in the here and now is a challenge, but I find that unless I am mindful to try, then I miss the miracles that occur minute by minute.
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Old Jul 14th 2007, 11:38 pm
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by ShozInOz
Hey no offence here. Just that, 1) FB did not mention depression, and confirmed that it was, in fact, the drink talking, and 2) in my post I did suggest he seek support from family, counsellors, ministers, whoever. Perhaps you missed that.
1. Yes i read his post that it was the drinking talking. This came after my initial post.

2. No i never missed the fact that you had thoughtfully advised him to speak to friends etc. Why did you think that i had?

Shozinoz i'm glad that i didn't cause offence.
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Old Jul 15th 2007, 8:50 am
  #48  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by ShozInOz
Thank you TW.

I believe, for the large part, yes - you are right. The environment is of course important in making us feel attached to a place (this is a little different but they may appear the same). If I felt like I 'belonged' in the UK, then moved to Australia and after 3 years did not feel anything like this, then my sense of 'belonging' may be more linked to a culture. But when we are in foreign lands, it is easy to think back, rosily, that we would feel belonging if we returned to where we 'belong'. After all, we spend 20-30-40 years socialising in one country, then move to somewhere very different. But many of us, if we are honest, never really felt that we 'belonged' in the first place - that may be partly why we moved.

My thinking is not so much shaped by being a psychologist as by Buddhist teachings. These teach, among many things, that everything is impermanent. We like to think of things as permanent (wife, children, home, things), thinking that is more comforting. In fact when we realise things are impermanent (as I started to when my mother died when I was 19), we start to realise what is important. Switch off the TV and play with my daughter - that kind of thing. Another thing that features in the Dharma is attachment. When we become attached to things (people, things, places), our mind almost literally seems glued to them. We crave them. When I craved 'home', my head was in another time and place; I was not present. Staying in the here and now is a challenge, but I find that unless I am mindful to try, then I miss the miracles that occur minute by minute.

Shoz - What a fanatastic post - can totally relate to what you have said and as they say 'Life is what happens when you're planning other things.'

Tracey - have you had your trip over East yet?? I hope it brings you some decisions. FWIW I think the sense of 'belonging' comes deep from inside - some people migrate and feel 'at home' almost immediately - others can stay in a place for years and never feel it. Surely it must be about you and your thoughts and feelings and not about 'the place'. Anyway hope you find a decision and peace soon.
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Old Jul 15th 2007, 9:38 am
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by ShozInOz
Thank you TW.

I believe, for the large part, yes - you are right. The environment is of course important in making us feel attached to a place (this is a little different but they may appear the same). If I felt like I 'belonged' in the UK, then moved to Australia and after 3 years did not feel anything like this, then my sense of 'belonging' may be more linked to a culture. But when we are in foreign lands, it is easy to think back, rosily, that we would feel belonging if we returned to where we 'belong'. After all, we spend 20-30-40 years socialising in one country, then move to somewhere very different. But many of us, if we are honest, never really felt that we 'belonged' in the first place - that may be partly why we moved.

My thinking is not so much shaped by being a psychologist as by Buddhist teachings. These teach, among many things, that everything is impermanent. We like to think of things as permanent (wife, children, home, things), thinking that is more comforting. In fact when we realise things are impermanent (as I started to when my mother died when I was 19), we start to realise what is important. Switch off the TV and play with my daughter - that kind of thing. Another thing that features in the Dharma is attachment. When we become attached to things (people, things, places), our mind almost literally seems glued to them. We crave them. When I craved 'home', my head was in another time and place; I was not present. Staying in the here and now is a challenge, but I find that unless I am mindful to try, then I miss the miracles that occur minute by minute.
I would love to meet you face to face and sit and talk for hours and hours and ponder over the principles of Buddhism. I find them so heartwarming and logical that I do not understand how anyone could disagree with how correct they are. I am just at the beginning or my journey of discovery as far as the Buddha's are concerned, but I have to say I am totally gobsmacked at just how, in such a short space of time, the readings I have completed and tried to digest, have affected my thought patterns.

At the moment I am reading "The Art of Happiness" written by a psychiatrist, who elaborates and debates on his discussions with the Dalai Lama. Very interesting reading. I am loving this learning and it's like a light has been switched on inside my head and an inner voice is saying "Ohhhhh, now I get it!" My OH is terrified I will start wearing an orange robe and shaving my head!!!!

Your quote; But many of us, if we are honest, never really felt that we 'belonged' in the first place - that may be partly why we moved. is so accurate and reflects me, and I'm sure the majority of immigrants here. Therefore, I shall continue to work on myself, from the inside out, and attempt to discover my sense of belonging.
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Old Jul 15th 2007, 9:40 am
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by pommybird
Tracey - have you had your trip over East yet?? I hope it brings you some decisions. FWIW I think the sense of 'belonging' comes deep from inside - some people migrate and feel 'at home' almost immediately - others can stay in a place for years and never feel it. Surely it must be about you and your thoughts and feelings and not about 'the place'. Anyway hope you find a decision and peace soon.
I am flying off tonight at 12.05!!!!! Really looking forward to it.
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Old Jul 15th 2007, 9:49 pm
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by TraceyW
I am flying off tonight at 12.05!!!!! Really looking forward to it.
I hope you have a brilliant holiday Tracey.

Don't look on it as a fact finding trip, just go with the flow and do what everyone else does on holiday - chill out, have a few drinks, enjoy being in a different environment and don't expect too much of yourself when it comes to staying in Australia.

Enjoy it because you deserve to.

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Old Jul 16th 2007, 4:20 pm
  #52  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by TraceyW

Your quote; But many of us, if we are honest, never really felt that we 'belonged' in the first place - that may be partly why we moved. is so accurate and reflects me, and I'm sure the majority of immigrants here. Therefore, I shall continue to work on myself, from the inside out, and attempt to discover my sense of belonging.
As someone once said on the Aussie forum, England is full of people with whom I have nothing in common, for the most part. That resonated with me, much as I miss the old place.

Still, I have even less in common with the average Perthite.

Talking of Buddhism, I have another theory that enlightenment can be found in the nothingness that is life in Perth. I've seen more action in a Zen garden.
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Old Jul 16th 2007, 4:55 pm
  #53  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by ShozInOz
Exactly bb. But I considered exactly how I came across, and would write the same again. I have many stories, as a psychologist and someone with a lot of experience of mental health issues, of people taking very damaging action after 'kind' advice that offered no challenge, and instead colluded.

This is an interesting thread.

FB - I really feel for you, bet your head and hearts all over the place right now - not a nice place to be

Shoz - your quote above....Interesting. True. - but can be looked at, or explored from a number of perspectives.

I think FB, there are 2 separate issues that need to be dealt with here, and in some ways one needs to be solved before you can tackle the next.

Firstly - where you want to live. I can see what Shoz is saying, essentially about your responsibility to your children and therefore colluding with you to go home may not be at all helpful. But, just to throw in a can of worms.....If you ignore the "I dont want to live here " question and stay, (perhaps resentfully til you get used to the idea) what if, for arguments sake, someone did this and a parent/loved one got ill/died in the UK and you couldnt be there for them? This is one of the fears that many expats have, and in many cases, a driving force for them to return. It is right that people should encourage you to look at ways of keeping the family unit together, and CBT may help - but does that mean your first question is answered? If not, it will resurface.

When I was homesick in Oz, I had some CBT. It did make me look at and appreciate the good in Oz and not over-emphasise the bad, but at the end of the day, maybe I am one of those people who dont feel at home anywhere. So, my logic was, of the 2 places Im more at home in the Uk and culture-wise it suits me more so if I want to work out being settled and appreciate what I have, the Uk is the best base to do it. I likened it in simplistic terms to UK town and country living. I hate country life. If I moved to the country and it didnt suit, I wouldnt feel I needed therapy, I would feel I needed a move. But if you move within a country its not questioned, but internationally it seems to be made more complex in terms of questioing the persons taste, motivation, sanity even sometimes. I dont get this.

Are people who you encourage you to stay just as collusive? Do people who support leaving your family if you are desperately unhappy helping to break a family? Do they know your wife and kids? Im just throwing questions into the air, but feel they are questions you need to consider.

For what its worth, with hindsight, after learning from the way I buggered up my own move back, I would do the following if I could. (it may not be right for you, but its another idae to take or leave)

Talk to your wife. Make sure she really, I mean really understands how you feel and how difficult it is for you. Once we see the pain in a loved one, we will want to help. Sadly we dont always understand just how hard it is sometimes as the person hurting doesnt want to go on and burden the other partner. Once she really understands you will feel better and the lines of communication are open.

Then be proactive. Suggest you take a month, say, vacation to the UK, to look at it with new eyes, see if what you really miss is to be found there or not. Say you will be as objective as possible and see it as a fact finding exercise. Then the CBT will be useful. Question things you see. What evidence do I have to support these feelings? If your wife will go along with this, the children will see dad's gone on holiday so they'll be ok and your wife will see that actually you may be going to lay ghosts to rest etc and if you come back believing the Uk is best for your family, you will have evidence to back it up.

If, after that you feel Oz is the best place for your family, all well and good, and like I said, a few ghosts may have been laid to rest.

If you find, you still want the UK life, you will be better able to articulate why, and then its time for you and your wife to work at any comprimises financially and emotionally you can both make. I dont know you, but it might be a couple of years in the UK, then re-assess after then or vise-versa. But at this stage, you dont need to rush. Just knowing you are planning together to move on will make you feel better. Whether from this stage it takes a year or 2 or a month, it doesnt matter. Depending on her reaction, perhaps joint counselling may help?? or at least for her too?

As said before, nothing is permenant, and knowing that, when you are somewhere you dont want to be, will help you appreciate the here and now.
Keep a goal, a plan and it will help. The passing time will be more enjoyable if you do.

Think Ive waffled enough!
Good luck to you
Chrissy
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 12:54 am
  #54  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by chance to be
...So, my logic was, of the 2 places Im more at home in the Uk and culture-wise it suits me more so if I want to work out being settled and appreciate what I have, the Uk is the best base to do it. I likened it in simplistic terms to UK town and country living. I hate country life. If I moved to the country and it didnt suit, I wouldnt feel I needed therapy, I would feel I needed a move. But if you move within a country its not questioned, but internationally it seems to be made more complex in terms of questioing the persons taste, motivation, sanity even sometimes. I dont get this.
Great post. This bit makes perfect sense to me (yet to put it to the test though!).
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 10:51 am
  #55  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by Exile
Talking of Buddhism, I have another theory that enlightenment can be found in the nothingness that is life in Perth. I've seen more action in a Zen garden.
Actually there's some truth to this. The 'upside' of a place like Perth with it's social dislocation is that you can indeed get to know yourself and your issues as well as the environmental issues (not meaning green) better. That said, one can only tolerate such a difficult position for so long before they finally have to say: "fark, enough is enough!...time to move on and find a life in which I feel alive. Time to live in the real world!
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 11:42 am
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by Exile
Great post. This bit makes perfect sense to me (yet to put it to the test though!).
Hi mate - long time, no hear

Yes. I really find it strange. You can move anywhere within countries because you prefer a way of life somewhere else and no-one really bats an eyelid. Move from a country and (some) people seem to really get on their soapbox about it. I honestly dont get it. The world's getting smaller all the time. Surely an international move is more understandable in terms of it doesnt suit than a national move

I am more comfortable with one lifestyle than another. So what? At least I know myself, I have learnt something. This has nothing to do with me being selfish or stupid. The issue here seems one of comprimise. After all, if a couple are in their home country and one is unhappy, you would kind of expect the other partner to consider alternate places to live. And sometimes you do HAVE to go back to know what you want. I wouldnt say I'd never go back to Oz, but I would say if I ever did it would have to be done completely differently in order to be successful.

And I think people should bear in mind that children want a happy family unit more than any large house, playstation or anything material. YOU will make your children happy. I got the People newspaper this Sunday (big mistake) and its full of chav gangs street fighting, knifing etc - and that night, I had a nightmare about my son getting stabbed. But, and I am being totally honest here, in my year back - I havent witnessed anything near like what the media portray. I feel very safe. We love our children. We do what it takes to make them safe. An expat who returns to a dangerous area is an idiot because they have choices. But people on this forum wont do that because they wouldnt voice their concerns for their kids if they were going to. A sad thing about UK now (but it will be the world over) is the rich/poor divide is growing so there are definate rough and definate "nice" areas. But if you choose not to live on an inner city estate, you will not be affected by it. And price-wise, it is still affordable to live in a nice place. You may have a smaller garden than a similar priced house in a rough area, but you will have a good life/school and so will your kids.
Thats another thing I dont understand The people on this forum who say the kids are really rough etc thats why they are migrating. But if you talk to these people, their kids are nice and so are their friends. Even the cousins are ok. So in their world, there are more good kids than bad. (where do these monsters have conatct with their kids then?). The only place could be school - you as parents choose schools. Schools are often a reflection of the area they are in. I think people have to believe that wherever they go, there will be good and bad - but fortunately wherever we live, there are always more good than bad. No wonder the bad do turn bad with all this negativity thrust on them. Give a dog a bad name and all that. I feel really sorry for todays teenagers - they are blamed for everything. The parents are the ones that should be punished, the kids are the ones that should be heard.

Last edited by chance to be; Jul 17th 2007 at 11:45 am.
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 11:51 am
  #57  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Interesting comment. I'm quite interested in Buddhism also, but one of the problems I have with monastic Buddhism is just as you described: freedom from desire and attachment seems to involve eliminating much of what I see as meaningful things in life. Yes, it's Just like living in suburban Perth!

The Japanese seem to have found away around this through various forms of hedonistic versions, Buddhism for capitalists, etc.

Originally Posted by kiwi_child
Actually there's some truth to this. The 'upside' of a place like Perth with it's social dislocation is that you can indeed get to know yourself and your issues as well as the environmental issues (not meaning green) better. That said, one can only tolerate such a difficult position for so long before they finally have to say: "fark, enough is enough!...time to move on and find a life in which I feel alive. Time to live in the real world!
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 6:33 pm
  #58  
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by chance to be
Hi mate - long time, no hear

Yes. I really find it strange. You can move anywhere within countries because you prefer a way of life somewhere else and no-one really bats an eyelid. Move from a country and (some) people seem to really get on their soapbox about it. I honestly dont get it. The world's getting smaller all the time. Surely an international move is more understandable in terms of it doesnt suit than a national move

I am more comfortable with one lifestyle than another. So what? At least I know myself, I have learnt something. This has nothing to do with me being selfish or stupid. The issue here seems one of comprimise. After all, if a couple are in their home country and one is unhappy, you would kind of expect the other partner to consider alternate places to live. And sometimes you do HAVE to go back to know what you want. I wouldnt say I'd never go back to Oz, but I would say if I ever did it would have to be done completely differently in order to be successful.

And I think people should bear in mind that children want a happy family unit more than any large house, playstation or anything material. YOU will make your children happy. I got the People newspaper this Sunday (big mistake) and its full of chav gangs street fighting, knifing etc - and that night, I had a nightmare about my son getting stabbed. But, and I am being totally honest here, in my year back - I havent witnessed anything near like what the media portray. I feel very safe. We love our children. We do what it takes to make them safe. An expat who returns to a dangerous area is an idiot because they have choices. But people on this forum wont do that because they wouldnt voice their concerns for their kids if they were going to. A sad thing about UK now (but it will be the world over) is the rich/poor divide is growing so there are definate rough and definate "nice" areas. But if you choose not to live on an inner city estate, you will not be affected by it. And price-wise, it is still affordable to live in a nice place. You may have a smaller garden than a similar priced house in a rough area, but you will have a good life/school and so will your kids.
Thats another thing I dont understand The people on this forum who say the kids are really rough etc thats why they are migrating. But if you talk to these people, their kids are nice and so are their friends. Even the cousins are ok. So in their world, there are more good kids than bad. (where do these monsters have conatct with their kids then?). The only place could be school - you as parents choose schools. Schools are often a reflection of the area they are in. I think people have to believe that wherever they go, there will be good and bad - but fortunately wherever we live, there are always more good than bad. No wonder the bad do turn bad with all this negativity thrust on them. Give a dog a bad name and all that. I feel really sorry for todays teenagers - they are blamed for everything. The parents are the ones that should be punished, the kids are the ones that should be heard.
Great post! Good points raised... and to add ...

We never buy papers except the local one relevant to US. Just get the news headlines/bbc online.

We will have a minute garden (if we ever exchange)

There are allsorts of people everywhere you live. If their ways infringe on your life, then it could be time to move house. But wherever you live you take the rough with the smooth.

"To thine own self be true". When I remembered my Dad saying that to me (when I was about 10) I knew it was time to come home!
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by chance to be
Hi mate - long time, no hear

Yes. I really find it strange. You can move anywhere within countries because you prefer a way of life somewhere else and no-one really bats an eyelid. Move from a country and (some) people seem to really get on their soapbox about it. I honestly dont get it. The world's getting smaller all the time. Surely an international move is more understandable in terms of it doesnt suit than a national move

I am more comfortable with one lifestyle than another. So what? At least I know myself, I have learnt something. This has nothing to do with me being selfish or stupid. The issue here seems one of comprimise. After all, if a couple are in their home country and one is unhappy, you would kind of expect the other partner to consider alternate places to live. And sometimes you do HAVE to go back to know what you want. I wouldnt say I'd never go back to Oz, but I would say if I ever did it would have to be done completely differently in order to be successful.

And I think people should bear in mind that children want a happy family unit more than any large house, playstation or anything material. YOU will make your children happy. I got the People newspaper this Sunday (big mistake) and its full of chav gangs street fighting, knifing etc - and that night, I had a nightmare about my son getting stabbed. But, and I am being totally honest here, in my year back - I havent witnessed anything near like what the media portray. I feel very safe. We love our children. We do what it takes to make them safe. An expat who returns to a dangerous area is an idiot because they have choices. But people on this forum wont do that because they wouldnt voice their concerns for their kids if they were going to. A sad thing about UK now (but it will be the world over) is the rich/poor divide is growing so there are definate rough and definate "nice" areas. But if you choose not to live on an inner city estate, you will not be affected by it. And price-wise, it is still affordable to live in a nice place. You may have a smaller garden than a similar priced house in a rough area, but you will have a good life/school and so will your kids.
Thats another thing I dont understand The people on this forum who say the kids are really rough etc thats why they are migrating. But if you talk to these people, their kids are nice and so are their friends. Even the cousins are ok. So in their world, there are more good kids than bad. (where do these monsters have conatct with their kids then?). The only place could be school - you as parents choose schools. Schools are often a reflection of the area they are in. I think people have to believe that wherever they go, there will be good and bad - but fortunately wherever we live, there are always more good than bad. No wonder the bad do turn bad with all this negativity thrust on them. Give a dog a bad name and all that. I feel really sorry for todays teenagers - they are blamed for everything. The parents are the ones that should be punished, the kids are the ones that should be heard.
Dear Chance to be

I must say that you post so much more eloquently since you have been back in the UK!! I am starting to think that Oz really was boring you to death!

I agree with the rich and poor divide comments. I believe that you see them so much more clearly when discussing your home town or somewhere that you are very familiar with. There is just a sharper clarity.

When I mention my home town of Edinburgh as having really rough areas on here, people disagree with me. (It really gets my goat)! There are dreadful areas and places of real depriviation in most large cities from Edinburgh to Madrid to Sydney. The trick is trying to avoid them for one's own family.

Unfortunately as house prices around the world just continue on their crazy escalator those with property and in better areas will be the lucky ones.

Last edited by busterboy; Jul 17th 2007 at 11:22 pm.
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Old Jul 17th 2007, 11:17 pm
  #60  
 
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Default Re: I have to leave this place

Originally Posted by Exile
Interesting comment. I'm quite interested in Buddhism also, but one of the problems I have with monastic Buddhism is just as you described: freedom from desire and attachment seems to involve eliminating much of what I see as meaningful things in life. Yes, it's Just like living in suburban Perth!

The Japanese seem to have found away around this through various forms of hedonistic versions, Buddhism for capitalists, etc.
I see the attachment issue as being attachment to things that are inherently without meaning, and inherently impermanant. I see it as more of an attachment that produces a craving that can never be satisfied - like an addiction, one drink only produces craving for another, and another. The craving is actually never satisfied, and our thinking error is "this time it will be different" or "this will fix me". We desire and consume material things in an attempt to fill a immaterial hole within us. But the Buddha reportedly saw craving as just one of the things that led to suffering (it is often cited as the thing, but that is just because it was the first in one of his characteristic lists, and often these were referred to by just the first item on the list). Our more common use of the word attachment in relationships (i.e. a strong bond between mother and child) is not the same use of the word. In relationships, the Buddhist concept of attachment would refer more to unhealthy, dependency-type relationships. Soemtimes this has been taken to the extreme though. The founder of Friends of the Western Buddhist Order came out with some stuff about marriage that most Buddhists would probably disagree with, but then he slept with some of his followers (reportedly)...

I don't see much of the Dharma in some of the later offshoots of Buddhism, e.g. enlightenment through chanting. Lazy! Buddhism is about how you live your life, not what you believe. This is how I see it.
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