Help with estimating electrical costs
Nov 19th 2023, 11:16 am
#16
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 674
Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
General note - the Energy Price Cap (EPC) for Oct - Dec 2023 is 27p / kWhr - https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...-december-2023
For any devices that are powered through plugs / sockets it's possible to add inline power monitoring - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricity..._id=1938287031
Something like this can show how much energy is being used, and when set up with kWhr charge, how much it is costing. Looking at the radiators, it's possible they can also do this - you might be able to download a copy of user manual if you don't have.
I looked at things a slightly different way - radiators full power / 24 hrs + 10 kWhr / day for all incidentals gave 2988.4 kWhr for 31 day month. Even at 32p/kWhr, cost did not go over £957/month unless they are also paying standing charge. Is it possible whoever is being billed has been getting estimates, and the low bill is due to an actual read?
For any devices that are powered through plugs / sockets it's possible to add inline power monitoring - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricity..._id=1938287031
Something like this can show how much energy is being used, and when set up with kWhr charge, how much it is costing. Looking at the radiators, it's possible they can also do this - you might be able to download a copy of user manual if you don't have.
I looked at things a slightly different way - radiators full power / 24 hrs + 10 kWhr / day for all incidentals gave 2988.4 kWhr for 31 day month. Even at 32p/kWhr, cost did not go over £957/month unless they are also paying standing charge. Is it possible whoever is being billed has been getting estimates, and the low bill is due to an actual read?
Nov 19th 2023, 4:16 pm
#17
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Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
Its a separate building, but I don't know if its 1 meter or 2, and if its one meter, how is it being divided up.
General note - the Energy Price Cap (EPC) for Oct - Dec 2023 is 27p / kWhr - https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...-december-2023
For any devices that are powered through plugs / sockets it's possible to add inline power monitoring - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricity..._id=1938287031
Something like this can show how much energy is being used, and when set up with kWhr charge, how much it is costing. Looking at the radiators, it's possible they can also do this - you might be able to download a copy of user manual if you don't have.
I looked at things a slightly different way - radiators full power / 24 hrs + 10 kWhr / day for all incidentals gave 2988.4 kWhr for 31 day month. Even at 32p/kWhr, cost did not go over £957/month unless they are also paying standing charge. Is it possible whoever is being billed has been getting estimates, and the low bill is due to an actual read?
For any devices that are powered through plugs / sockets it's possible to add inline power monitoring - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electricity..._id=1938287031
Something like this can show how much energy is being used, and when set up with kWhr charge, how much it is costing. Looking at the radiators, it's possible they can also do this - you might be able to download a copy of user manual if you don't have.
I looked at things a slightly different way - radiators full power / 24 hrs + 10 kWhr / day for all incidentals gave 2988.4 kWhr for 31 day month. Even at 32p/kWhr, cost did not go over £957/month unless they are also paying standing charge. Is it possible whoever is being billed has been getting estimates, and the low bill is due to an actual read?
The radiators may have something built in but their manual isn't written fir laypeople like me - though you'd probably understand it all at first reading! Even reprogramming them looks like a mammoth task!Wow, I knew electricity in UK was expensive but I would quickly be bankrupt with bills like that! There is something strange going on with my electric bills here in Croatia. I seem to have paid hardly anything this year, less than €300 for 6 months (1/2/23 to 31/7/23). I'm assuming I must have been paying high estimated bills last year and got ahead with payments.
Nov 19th 2023, 5:50 pm
#19
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Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
I'm incredibly lucky to have the heating included in the rent - and its a reasonable rent too. The whole building is on the same system, around 50 flats, and its one way of making sure you don't overspend on heating as its all centrally controlled time-wise, on and off at various times, depending on the temps outside. Obviously you can get in your own heaters as well but I haven't needed to yet.
Nov 20th 2023, 11:15 am
#20
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Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
Interesting one to which I hope someone might have some input. I can't go into too much detail as its rather a delicate situation, but any ideas are welcome.
We are trying to work out what the electricity usage for the property below should be. Having missed the worst of the energy crisis myself, and now living in a flat with heating part of the rent payment, I'm a bit at sea here
So the property is a converted stone barn, so although its single storey, it has a fairly high roof space. One room is 17'x 15'9", the other is 12'x 9' with a bathroom 5'3"x 8'10". No draughts or anything, its good solid stone walls. Granny-flat sort of thing.
We currently don't have access to the meter or the actual bills, but a figure for payment is sent through monthly. For the delicate reasons mentioned above its no good at present asking for the meter to be tested or anything, but if people think that could be necessary I will work towards it.
There are two Haverland RCCT radiators, one in each room; they have some complicated programming system; the person who set it up is no longer around so I can't ask him what the timings are, but I know they are on 24/7, at around 21 degrees we think during the day, then cooler at night. Unfortunately due to the way they are programmed (and the fact I have only just now got involved) they were on 24/7 through the summer as well. I think he would've changed the settings for the summer but sadly he was long gone by then.
The only other electrical usage is a small water heater in the cupboard under the sink; seems to hold the hot water and then heat up again when refilled (I know less than nothing about these things as you can tell!), then washing machine once a week, bit of tv and lights. usual "elderly lady" stuff.
Bills last winter were around £1000-1200 a month
; by June they had gradually come down to around £600 and last month is £260.
I don't get it; has the price of electric dropped that much this year? What would any of you expect to pay for a property like that? There won't have been a change of supplier or tariff or anything. Does anyone have experience of these radiators?
All help gratefully received!
We are trying to work out what the electricity usage for the property below should be. Having missed the worst of the energy crisis myself, and now living in a flat with heating part of the rent payment, I'm a bit at sea here
So the property is a converted stone barn, so although its single storey, it has a fairly high roof space. One room is 17'x 15'9", the other is 12'x 9' with a bathroom 5'3"x 8'10". No draughts or anything, its good solid stone walls. Granny-flat sort of thing.
We currently don't have access to the meter or the actual bills, but a figure for payment is sent through monthly. For the delicate reasons mentioned above its no good at present asking for the meter to be tested or anything, but if people think that could be necessary I will work towards it.
There are two Haverland RCCT radiators, one in each room; they have some complicated programming system; the person who set it up is no longer around so I can't ask him what the timings are, but I know they are on 24/7, at around 21 degrees we think during the day, then cooler at night. Unfortunately due to the way they are programmed (and the fact I have only just now got involved) they were on 24/7 through the summer as well. I think he would've changed the settings for the summer but sadly he was long gone by then.
The only other electrical usage is a small water heater in the cupboard under the sink; seems to hold the hot water and then heat up again when refilled (I know less than nothing about these things as you can tell!), then washing machine once a week, bit of tv and lights. usual "elderly lady" stuff.
Bills last winter were around £1000-1200 a month
; by June they had gradually come down to around £600 and last month is £260.I don't get it; has the price of electric dropped that much this year? What would any of you expect to pay for a property like that? There won't have been a change of supplier or tariff or anything. Does anyone have experience of these radiators?
All help gratefully received!
Nov 20th 2023, 10:22 pm
#21
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Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
Does your property have a meter box or is it a joint one with the main property? Have you ever actually received a fuel bill for you actual usage on your property?The amount does sound very expensive especially if you had the government help with heating most properties received last/this year. At those costs I would have to broach the subject with the owner of the property in the politest way possible.
It'll be well into next year I suspect, before I dare to raise the subject and ask to see the bills/meter, its just not a conversation that would go anywhere. I've sent for one of those meters Sparkles suggested so we'll take it from there.
Useful to hear everyone's opinions on the size of the bill she is paying, I've been working really in the dark till now (no pun intended!!)
Nov 21st 2023, 12:26 am
#22
Joined: Dec 2001
Location: Dixie, ex UK
Posts: 52,236
Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
Currently, Haverland radiators are rated at a maximum of 1.8 KW. So, 1.8 @ 31p for say, 18 hours a day, times 2 = £ 20 per day, £600 / month plus any standing charges, VAT, etc plus of course the other appliances you mention.
So that I think that indicates your bills are about right and, bearing in mind that you asked about consumption I am guessing that your consumption is about 2000kwh per month, averaged over the 12 months. .....
So that I think that indicates your bills are about right and, bearing in mind that you asked about consumption I am guessing that your consumption is about 2000kwh per month, averaged over the 12 months. .....
A secondary problem is that the stone walls, while draft proof, are not in themselves a good insulator, and worse, they take a lot of heat to make them warm, and until they are warm they're going to suck up more and more heat. That is precisely the principle on which storage heaters work - heating up masonry bricks with cheap(er) electricity at night, then releasing it during the day. But the difference is that a storage heater is inside your home, so all the released heat is warming your home, whereas a thick stone wall, which already has a massive capacity for absorbing heat, then will want to release at least some of it on the outside.
If I owned such a building myself, I would want to line it, with, at least 2"x4" (37mm x 75mm) studs 24" apart, if not 2"X6"s, and then fill the gaps with insulation before covering it over with plasterboard. In fact I actually did do that with an extension that someone, an over-enthusiastic, but clueless, bricklayer, had built with at least a double layer of bricks, but no air gap, and no insulationof any sort. The add-on bathroom got very cold in winter, and when I was renovating the bathroom I lined the three external walls with 2"x4"s and insulated them. Afterwards the bathroom was 8" shorter and 4" narrower (luckily it had been generously sized beforehand), but it was a lot more pleasant to use, especially in the winter.
If possible I would install ceiling fans to circulate the warm air in winter, using an _upward_ direction to circulate air, and not create a downward draft which would significantly reduce the benefit of circulating the warm air.
Last edited by Pulaski; Nov 21st 2023 at 1:05 am.
Nov 21st 2023, 9:26 am
#23
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Posts: 674
Re: Help with estimating electrical costs
I agree, without going into the maths you did, I have no doubt that the numbers are very plausible. The information missing is how well the ceiling/ roof is insulated? ..... High ceilings can lead to heat being "wasted" by it just rising to near the ceiling and being unavailable to keep the occupants warm (this is the classic problem with trying to heat any traditional British church building, that you need to heat 50-100ft, or more in the case of a cathedral. of "unused" air before you are heating the space within 3-4 feet of the floor that people are standing or sitting in). But warm air near the ceiling can cool quite quickly if the ceiling doesn't have insulation above it.
A secondary problem is that the stone walls, while draft proof, are not in themselves a good insulator, and worse, they take a lot of heat to make them warm, and until they are warm they're going to suck up more and more heat. That is precisely the principle on which storage heaters work - heating up masonry bricks with cheap(er) electricity at night, then releasing it during the day. But the difference is that a storage heater is inside your home, so all the released heat is warming your home, whereas a thick stone wall, which already has a massive capacity for absorbing heat, then will want to release at least some of it on the outside.
If I owned such a building myself, I would want to line it, with, at least 2"x4" (37mm x 75mm) studs 24" apart, if not 2"X6"s, and then fill the gaps with insulation before covering it over with plasterboard. In fact I actually did do that with an extension that someone, an over-enthusiastic, but clueless, bricklayer, had built with at least a double layer of bricks, but no air gap, and no insulationof any sort. The add-on bathroom got very cold in winter, and when I was renovating the bathroom I lined the three external walls with 2"x4"s and insulated them. Afterwards the bathroom was 8" shorter and 4" narrower (luckily it had been generously sized beforehand), but it was a lot more pleasant to use, especially in the winter.
If possible I would install ceiling fans to circulate the warm air in winter, using an _upward_ direction to circulate air, and not create a downward draft which would significantly reduce the benefit of circulating the warm air.
A secondary problem is that the stone walls, while draft proof, are not in themselves a good insulator, and worse, they take a lot of heat to make them warm, and until they are warm they're going to suck up more and more heat. That is precisely the principle on which storage heaters work - heating up masonry bricks with cheap(er) electricity at night, then releasing it during the day. But the difference is that a storage heater is inside your home, so all the released heat is warming your home, whereas a thick stone wall, which already has a massive capacity for absorbing heat, then will want to release at least some of it on the outside.
If I owned such a building myself, I would want to line it, with, at least 2"x4" (37mm x 75mm) studs 24" apart, if not 2"X6"s, and then fill the gaps with insulation before covering it over with plasterboard. In fact I actually did do that with an extension that someone, an over-enthusiastic, but clueless, bricklayer, had built with at least a double layer of bricks, but no air gap, and no insulationof any sort. The add-on bathroom got very cold in winter, and when I was renovating the bathroom I lined the three external walls with 2"x4"s and insulated them. Afterwards the bathroom was 8" shorter and 4" narrower (luckily it had been generously sized beforehand), but it was a lot more pleasant to use, especially in the winter.
If possible I would install ceiling fans to circulate the warm air in winter, using an _upward_ direction to circulate air, and not create a downward draft which would significantly reduce the benefit of circulating the warm air.
