Giantaxe

How is it "free"? The NHS is paid out of current taxation and returnees will be paying taxes when they return

Caruthers

That was my original point. Its not free. Seems some people perceive it to be "free". That was the adjective that was originally being used.

I suppose I should not have omitted the italic marks. And sure, returnees can pay tax into the system, assuming they are able.

Giantaxe

It's good to see you now acknowledge that people who return to become residents will likely be paying taxes that fund the NHS and thus "pay up and you will receive" is precisely what they will be doing through the tax system.

Caruthers

I never doubted that. I was originally just surprised to see someone who had been here all their life more or less, referring to "free" NHS in the context of what they could expect to get. Its not. I just question "takers", which seems to me to be a very US trait.

Giantaxe

Fair enough... except that the OP - by virtue of the fact they are returning to reside in the UK - isn't a "taker" at all, regardless of the fact that they referred to the NHS being "free" as opposed to "free at the point of service".

Sally Redux

I have noticed that a lot of Brits actually don't understand how our taxation/NHS/pension system works. Your tax goes into a pot which is drawn on for everyone's current needs. When you come to need something, it is paid for out of the current tax revenue from others.

Caruthers

Except the NHS is looking at a 40 billion shortfall by 2020, so clearly the government don't know how it works either...

formula

There is no imaginary "pot" waiting for "When you come to need something, it is paid for out of the current tax revenue from others"
The income tax the UK government collects, now doesn't even cover the UKs welfare bill! That happened a few years ago (for the first time ever) and it scared Labour enough that even some of their MPs baulked at what their party had done. Slamming on the welfare brakes, hasn't corrected that....yet.

What about all the other bills the UK has to pay, i.e. the interest on our massive debts, paying down our massive debts , NHS and all it's shortfalls, etc? The list seems endless.

Cuts, rule changes, cuts and more cuts and more rule changes to come and not only with for the welfare claimants. The UK urgently needs every one of these cuts and changes.

formula

Sad to see that some operations that were free on the NHS are now private.

We really need to put the NHS under "public funds" to stop visa holders from using the NHS for free: and insist that returning Brits have paid x number of years into the UK tax system before they can have free NHS. The latter would also stop those using the EU and Irish route from getting free NHS, until they had paid taxes to the UK too for the same number of years.

These private insurance companies would also give a financial boost to the NHS when they pay out on claims

It wouldn't cause a problem for the healthy who really want to work in the UK as they could buy private insurance. It would also resolve the problem the UK has of those moving to the UK for free NHS for their existing health problems.

Sally Redux

That's what I'm saying. There is no 'pot' that people think they are paying their 'stamp' into.

Giantaxe

Actually, there is actually a National Insurance trust fund.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance_Fund

But it doesn't cover the NHS any more:

Interesting that the fund currently has quite a large surplus.

Given there's no trust fund for the NHS, it's hard to justify - either morally or legally - charging returning citizens something they will be paying for through taxation.

Sally Redux

Yes I maybe shouldn't have lumped pensions in there. However, one's contributions aren't specifically earmarked for one's future use in the the way people often express it.

windsong

Thank you, Mikelincs.

Whatever the answer was to be, it really helps to understand the present situation and what the plans are, so we can all plan ahead accordingly.

bigglesworth

Thanks GA - a couple of really interesting links you have posted lately. I have been mulling this one and really cannot make sense of it. I would however disagree that there is a "large surplus" = a bit over two months payments I believe is all.

Nye Bevan famously said the secret of the National Insurance Fund is there ain't no Insurance and there ain't no Fund.

National Insurance is in fact a tax very like income tax- so returnees should bear in mind that the bottom rate of tax in the UK is not 30 percent but 41 percent, and the top rate 61 percent (in fact at the margins it approximates 82 percent I believe).

One of the consequences of the last Governments decisions to amalgamate many benefits into the tax system, is that the linkage that most believed existed between National Insurance and the old age pension has been broken.
Many on the Left (and increasingly on the Right too now) describe the State Pension here as a benefit, and are bent on reducing or limiting what is already one of the worst State Pensions in the OECD. The full State Pension if one has worked a full 35 years will still be only a tad more than a quarter of average earnings.


At times it is beginning to feel as though someone is trying to stoke a war between the generations. There are plenty of comments that baby boomers have had it easy, and own large amounts of property etc, whilst Generation Rent does not.

Caruthers

One of the ideas floating around here, is that baby boomers will find themselves increasingly disadvantaged. As more of them are forced to sell properties at a similar point, because of aging, demise etc. there will not be sufficient buyers because of a demographic decline coupled with affordability issues. So it may not all be stacked one way in the near future, as market distortions have been created beyond normal boom and bust.

Of course, we all live in denial, saying, well not in my area..