Divorce and moving back - help
 

I just wrote a huge post and deleted because it's just too much info!!

I'm consulting a lawyer - but can anyone tell me anything about divorce and taking kids back to the UK? Everyone involved is a UK / US dual citizen. Marriage took place in the UK; kids were born in the U.S.

I know this is very general, and everyone's circumstances are different.... But this isn't a healthy situation for anyone, and my gut instinct is to leave, but I want to be sure I'm absolutely clear of all the legal ramifications.

Please - no judgement on parental rights, this isn't something I'm considering lightly, my kids wellbeing is of absolute priority. Thank you.

From a Mum in need ~ thank you in advance.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Welcome to BE.

I take it you live in the US and wish to move back to the UK with your children. If so...you will need written permission from the father to remove the children from the US.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

You will need EITHER:

(i) Permission from the childrens father to remove them from the US to the UK,

OR

(ii) A court order allowing them to be removed from the US to the UK.

If you can't get (i) then getting (ii) may be a very significant problem. In fact, barring criminal activity by the father, almost any farther that has not within entirely from his children's life, can successfully object to his children being removed from the country.

Where the children were born and whichever passports they hold are pretty much irrelevant to the decision, it is where there "usual home" is that is the key factor.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

I've just moved back home to the UK after 8 years in Calgary for exactly the same reason. Everyone is saying I'm crazy - we've been back for just 4 days. My husband agreed that I could bring them back and we got a lawyers letter signed by us both stating that. He is following in a few weeks when he's sorted his stuff out in Canada but things are pretty awful there with the work/housing sale situation due to the oil crash. Anyway just wanted to say that while its disorientating for the kids in the short term, I needed family support and so do they. While I have lost my amazing house/truck/alimony - I'm still convinced it was right for them.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

The OP should apply for British passport for her children if she has not done so already.

The process takes a number of weeks and it would be better to have the British passports ready before planning to return to the UK. Please see link below -

https://www.gov.uk/overseas-passports

Another thing for the OP - is she a US citizen just now? If not, she should consider taking up US citizenship before leaving the US - will make life easier if children returned to the US after a period in the UK.

You may also want to start looking for schools in the areas you wish to settle in the UK.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

As has been mentioned the vital documents are valid British passports for the children and either written permission from the father to remove the children from the United States to the United Kingdom or a court order to the same effect. Without the latter you could find yourself on the wrong end of an Interpol notice for international child abduction. Without the father's permission/a court order then your options are either to remain in the US with your children or return to the UK without them.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

You don't need written permission.
Verbal permission is quite sufficient provided the father really does not disapprove. Some fathers "could care less" to use the American argot.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

:eek:

That's the first time I have heard that.

What if down the road the father decides he did not give his permission?

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

According to her post she is.

You're unlikely to even get the kids on the plane without written approval, let alone a permanent move.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Why on earth do you say that? I've travelled plenty of times with my children without their father and never needed written permission.

Once divorce papers are filed, different story of course.

To the OP - your "gut" instinct may not be the one to follow at this point. Get a good lawyer and listen very carefully to what they say. It's probably not advisable to get a divorce started on an angry note. If you think your OH will object to you taking the children and you do anyway, you will need to weigh up the possible financial implications even if he doesn't decide to pursue the repatriation of the children through the Hague Convention.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

A verbal agreement is meaningless. Unless the legally binding written permission is given by the father or a court then the OP could be in very hot water.

https://travel.state.gov/content/childabduction/en.html

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

You could be arrested for kidnapping if you do not get permission from the father and to do it by legal document. I am going home to England after my husband asked for a divorce and he's allowing me to take my girls home. I suggest you consult a lawyer. Usually the first 30 minutes is free.

Good luck in your decision. It's hard I know I'm going through it right now.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Some airlines nowadays won't allow a parent to fly alone with kids out of the country unless they can provide written evidence from the other parent giving their permission.

Some info from the good folks at US Customs & Border Protection: https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...ot-a-parent-or

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

As in the father has died? Death certificate I suppose.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Or, as in father has no parental rights, father was a sperm donor, father was a one night stand and never seen again, father was a rapist, etc.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Good information provided by Trish but please note - its only advisory along the lines of may cause delays nothing mandatory. Editha's question is answered in the information provided. All seems a bit onerous and insidious to me.

My own experience is I have never been asked nor has my former spouse when we have travelled extensively with children as sole parents throughout the world. Thinking logically perhaps this is because when you obtain a childrens passport in the US both parents have to sign for and consent to the application and all identifying information for both parents ssn, passport number etc is taken at the time in person. Only exception being Form DS3053

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Birth certificate with no father named.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

I've only ever heard of one person being stopped boarding a plane and that was when she had a young baby and a toddler and since this woman had retained her maiden name, the kids' surnames in their passports were different to hers. Luckily she was able to call the father to come back to the airport and all was ok. In this case, I think the customs/border people acted correctly. I can't imagine a woman with 2 kids who look like her, have the same name as her will be stopped unless the husband has already made a report.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

BUT... I'm adding that the OP needs to think about the bigger picture here. Settling a divorce across international borders is difficult and expensive. Enforcing any orders made is not impossible but very difficult and expensive again and also if it goes to a judge in the US, they aren't going to be very impressed with her taking the kids out of the country. Never mind pissing off her husband enough that he won't be in a kind negotiating mood. From what I've seen of US divorce laws, keeping on the good side of the husband and the judge is a good idea.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Interesting post, something for us to think about ( not the divorce bit). We are all dual Oz/Brit citizens but my wife is originally from Sth Korea and kept her surname. Our daughter has my surname. Looks wise, when she's well behaved she looks like me, when she's acting up and firing a wobbler, she looks like her Mum. :lol:

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

One parent travelling with children may not be pulled to one side if they have return tickets. Airlines or Border Security would be very remiss, in this day and age, if they don't query a parent travelling with children on a one way ticket. There are more and more stories of a parent 'kidnapping' their own children.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

I have to say as probably the only person on BE who has dealt with child abductions at a major port. Arrested parents both mums and dads for the offence, and was responsible for maintaining the UK child abduction warning list. While you all have good intentions it would be wise to limit your comment to "you need permission to remove a child from the country, consult a lawyer", because it is clear most of you know little about the subject and even less about what happens at a port.

It amazed me how many solicitors in the UK knew little about the subject and frequently messed up. It is a complex subject, the devil is in the details and depending on those details determines if permission is required and who has to give it.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Lansbury - I am sure that you have seen a great deal of this and your advice is excellent as always.
But seriously, haven't you ever known a family where one parent did return home with the child(ren) and nothing more happened apart from an angry divorce?
In my years as an ex-pat I have known women who literally flee the country with not much more than a cabin bag and their children. I have also known a woman who had to leave her child behind whilst she moved just to be able to support herself due to lack of financial assistance from either ex-husband or state. I have known women having to feed themselves from charities just so they could stay in the same country as their children.

Personally, I'd stay put and fight for all the assets I could because being poor isn't nice no matter where you are.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

No I haven't because those cases wouldn't come to police attention. I have know quite a few cases where one parent has been arrested spent time in a police cell and then once the kids are back the parent making the complaint has declined to proceed.

But that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I know people are giving well meaning advice but as Mr F says about other things one size does not fit all and you have to speak and ask questions to find out the full circumstances. I rarely comment on a thread of this nature because I don't know the full circumstances and I'm not going to ask in a public forum, so might well give bad advice. Secondly unless someone is well versed in US Federal and State laws, which very few are and I am most certainly not one of them, the only safe advice is seek professional advice. The magic words are parental responsibility, who has it and who doesn't.

I would never say to anyone take the children and go because in the US if the other parents makes a criminal complaint it is dealt with by the FBI, and no-one wants to be on the wrong side of that organization. Yes I do understand the plight of the mothers, or fathers, in such a situation and the best course of action is seek professional advice. If you don't and the other parent complains the best that will happen is the child will be sent back to the US, the worse the offending parent gets sent back as well to face the consequences. Either is very traumatic for the child, I know I have seen the results of having to arrest a parent and hand a child to social services to be looked after pending a flight back to the States.

Like I said I know people here are well meaning, but I was just reading so much that wasn't necessarily correct that I decided to say so.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Well said! The only way for her to get the right advice is to consult with an attorney. I'm going through a divorce myself and taking my children back to England with the permission from their father (with a legal court document). First thing I did was consult with a lawyer. It's the only way to get the correct information.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Parent here, who has children whose other parent (eventually) ended up having his parental rights terminated. Until my sprogs reached age of majority, we travelled with piles of paperwork (his signed authority to move countries, subsequent court orders, etc etc). We were rarely questioned/required to produce the paperwork, but when we were, it was indispensable,

+1 to bolded.

Get it in writing, get it notarized at the very least, if in any doubt of the other parent's good faith, get confirmation via a court order.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

I made numerous trips from California to visit family in UK, just me and my son at various ages.
Only once did the airline person check with her supervisor and confirm that no paperwork is needed. "Same as for Canada" was what I heard said by the airport worker. Both before and after I became naturalized (sic) American. My son throughout travelling on his US passport (to ease reentry into USA).
One the other hand when my young son made trips as unaccompanied minor then paperwork was needed - but only from one parent. Unaccompanied minor is recommended as a good way for kids to travel without fuss from busybodies, provided you have family willing to pick them up on arrival.

Someone else raised the issue of "What if the husband later objects". Well, what I'm saying is that you don't need paperwork if there are no objections. Sadly, some (many) dads truly don't give a damn and are happy to see the child gone. Obviously if there are objections then all is set for the lawyers to get rich and the parents poor.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

I did it a dozen or more times and never had a problem. Many different airlines - United, American, British, Delta and probably others that don't come to mind.
San Francisco to Manchester or to London.

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

How long ago was this?

Re: Divorce and moving back - help
 

Interestingly, in March I flew to SF from London with my two children and I was asked about travelling alone with them. Not by the airport staff, but by the immigration officer when we arrived at SFO.

Luckily, I was meeting my husband out there who was studying at Berkeley, and he was waiting for us at the airport, but they did go and find him to double check I was telling the truth!