Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Please, don'ty let's turn this into a quarrel.
Thank you very much, manamama. Really. A lot. And it means a lot to me taht you wrote it, and it's quite rare on forums, people stickingu up for otehr peopel, and people being as nice and as sensible and as open and as supportive as I've experienced here.

But let's not fight. Life is so hard, for so many, theer is so much bad - we must try harder a nd harder and just pour in more psoitivity and facts and truth - and love and charity, if we have any to spare.

(I think truth is the most impiortant. I'm not a Chritian, I mean I wouldn't kind of "sign up" to a particular religion, but didn't Jesus say, "The truth will set you free"? I think that is something we can and should apply in every part of life. (Actually, I first read it in 'Anne of Ingleside'!))

Oh, by the way, easterndawn, if you are taking any NSAId, it's even more important not to take an FQ. That is written in most NSAID info - but not in my Norfloxmurderdrug info!

You s ee, Professional Princess is right taht it's the modern drugs that are terrifying. That's one eraosn thsesr antibiotics senal- oh HECK - sneak - up on us - we think of penicillin, etc. which are absed on naturally occuring molecules. The tradional antibiotics, such as penicillin, are based on bacteria. to fight bacteria. Even if they are synthesised, they are struycturally the same type of molecule, like a copy of nature. But the modern ones are invented, chemical ones. they are chemotherapy. Our bodies have absolutely no way of eliminating them or of combatting the mal. we ahven't eveolved to have any defence. They are nearly all cum ulative and where they accumulate is iin palces taht you can't just "detoxify", such as bones and brain! At the hospital, gehy'll doa blood etst, tell you teh FQ has all gone and you are imaginging it. In fact, quinolones (and the fluoride simply makes them able to penetarte everywhere, deeper and "better", as wella s harming you anyway) work against bacteria by an different method and unfortunately they can't do teh sam e to our own cells as to the abcteria. One of my first shocks was when I discovered taht doctors, pharmacists and even the inventors and manufactureres of the drugs don't necessarily have any odea HOW they work! they just invent a new molecule, try it out, find it kills germs, although they ahve no ide a how, and way.heigh, off we go. year slater, they styart to work out what is actually ahppeening.

The Fqs slit open the double helix that contains teh DNA, tehy then re-seal it and disable the DNA. When the cell "realises" tghat it is damaged and should divide to make two new cells, or when it's time for new cells to be made to replace dead or damaged ones, it can't. So, if you ahve a lot of cells damaged, you will gradually deteriorate, as your good cells get used uop in teh normal way and you can't replace them. that's why energetic people, active peple, are often damaged and why one msutn't exercsie too much. it's also why old peoopel are damaged, as they don't make new eclls so much anyway. And yound people are evry sensitive, especially their joints, becaus etheir cartilage is still softer and growing. I eman, thats' putting it in rather chatty sort of lay termns.

Also, they penetrate your brain and interfere with - or kill, we don't know - the neurotransmittors and GABA receptors, but i honestly haven't yet learnt enough to understand taht part, so I don't want to saty more,m in case i talk nonsense.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Thank you very much, Barb. Yes, You are right. I can see that. I partly wanted to stay because I didn't wantto just crawl away defeated, when i'd wanted for so long to come here and only just arrived! And I partly wanted to stay because i wanted to campaign a lot, or at least disseminate a lot of information, in Spain, where there is total ignorance about this.

But you're right. No British campsite owners or employeees would drive past with thier noses in the air, for ten months, while I leaned out signalling and calling ofr help. (Especiallya s I tyarnslated all their website and got them approved for teh best French guidebook.) And in Britain someone would have got me some fresh food and some ice, when I was sobbing. I have felt rather like the bull in the bullfight.

And I can still make a fuss, in sapnish, I mean Spanish, without being here, because of the internet.

Yes, I will get home, somehow. And sooner rather than later.

I'm so gald you've taken note of the information.
I'm also glad youi agree taht suicide isn't always the worst option. Sometimes it's just kinder, a way to find peace. But one would so much rather die in one's own land.

I'm comparativley lucky, too - at least I'm old. I read the otehr day a post on a forum from teh motehr of a little girl who ahd been given Ciprofloxacino - as a precaution, when she had no infection - and her liver had, literally, dissolved, They did a transplant and when they took the old one out, it turned to mush in their hands. It leaves one speechless.

I often think taht, truly, we are creating hell on earth.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Dear Mistake, I am so sorry for the situation you find yourself in. I hope that you are able to get back to the UK very soon and that you can access some help.

I absolutely agree with you that many drugs being promoted and sold to people are in fact harmful and not only are people not being warned properly, the 'experts' who are recommending the drugs don't really know about all the effects (SSRI antidepressants are a case in point) and it seems that we must try and inform ourselves wherever we can and research these drugs on a 'buyer beware' basis - I feel we have no choice in this nowadays rather than completely accepting the word of doctors who may have been 'educated' to a large extent by the pharmaceutical industry.

Although I have not had a problem with medications personally, I have had surgical issues where errors were made and options not fully explained and as a result it's now too late for the situation to be fully rectified. Yes, it does make one rather resentful of doctors and 'the system' - the worst is the lack of accountability or even an acknowledgement or an apology. Too fearful of legal repercussions I suppose.

Maybe medical treatment practices are the same in the UK, US or Australia but I certainly agree that there is a lot more ancillary assistance in the UK particularly for older people. I am only 45 but I feel as if I am 'past it' and no longer really valued in Australia, which is why I am making plans to go back to the UK as soon as I can get the logistics sorted out. It is a pleasure to know that there is somewhere over the other side of the world where if you are not 25 you still have a contribution to make.:)

Mistake I wish you all success in your planned move and please, please hang in there and keep posting as there are a lot of us who are thinking of you.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Sorry Mistake...It's just that I found Easterdawns comments a bit insensitive and lacked sympathy for your situation. (maybe she hadn't read them all ).

She of all people, I expected some more comforting words as she has heaps and heaps of support and well wishing from so many "forum friends" on another thread.. Grrr.. Anyway...sorry again.

Is the sun shining your way? Today after a week of rain and floods, it is bright. but still cold... Brrr - I heard its been lovely in the UK..

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Goodnesss, manamama, you have absolutely nothing for which to apologise, you of all people. In fact, on Wednesday, I was going to send you a p.m. to explain, but my time was not my own*. Then I was going to again, all day and evening yesterday, but was still not free**. You weer right and you weer kind. I was juyst afraid that the thread could turn into a long-running argument and that woudl have been a pity, especiaclly if were for my sake. No, I really thank you.

Anyway, moving on...

The reason I have not been free is that I belong to a kitten. No, I don't want a cat; I don't even want a kitten, but..
...I heard the most extarordinary, raucous squawking, shriek, again and again, on and on. It sounded like some kind of exotiuc magpie-ish bird and I was trying to see what it was, when I saw a tiny, skinny kitten tottering across the car park. I went towards him very carefully and sweetly, afraid he0'd run away, but he's too young to run and anyway, he was desperate to be saved. He looked like the tragic refugee children you see on Oxfam advertisements, just skin and bone and with that elderly look they get. I didn't think he would live. Anyway, I bathed him, dried him till he ws fluffly, cleaned his eyes and fed him with a dropper; he wouldn't drink much but I forced him to take water with Rescue Remedy and then water with sugar. He didn't like the goat's milk, though, so yesterday i ha dto get a lift into the town and a taxi back again, to buy him some stinky formula milk and a bottle. He loves it and already looks much rounder and cuter and more kittenish. He likes to sopend all his tyime inside my t-shirt during the day and inside my nightie at night; he snuggles squirms and and kneads and purrs and is blissfully happy and he sleeps in that alarming way that evry young creatures do – a sleep so sudden and profound that you have to keep checking to see whether they're still alive. Also, he doesn't squawk any more – he mews, like a normal kitten.

I can see I won't be able to go to England, now or, probably, ever. Just that short triop to the pet shop and to geta small amount of shopping at tehs ame time, has made me ache all over eevn more – am in so much pain and one ankle swollen and knee nearly disloacting, one arm half-paralysed and all tingly – I couldn't possibly manage a journey to England. So I've struck that off the list for now. The opther plan doesn't look good, either. I can see that I'd probably end up just as badly off, the area isn't realy suitable.. I may ahve to spend teh summer on the campsite after all. In fact, I may have to stay here for the rest of my life. Probably with a horde of squawking kittens. How very depressing. It's quite a wierd situatrion, really. Trust me – typical, absoluertly typical.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Thank you, Moonsurfer.

yes, I think doctors are more afraid of being sued for not giving medication tahn for giving medication that wrecks you. If you weern't offered treatment and then got iller or died, the doctor could be sued with some likelihood of success, but it's almosrt impossible to prove that they have damaged you by giving you teratment (fopr nothing, in many cases.)

In the USA, it took ages of campaigning to get more warnings in the opackae inserts for FQs and now they have, it's working against victims, beacsue the drug company can say, "But you were warned."

I think I was incredibly stupid, careless and feeble and do blame myself terribly, which doesn't make it any easier to bear. But i do think that thses are extra-sneaky, as antibiotics are the most trusted class of drug. I would neevr ahve agreed to take an SSRI or benzo-diazepine, or any longterm treatment, or treatment for a serious condition, wityhout a lot of questioning, but an antibiotic - I never thought.

Theer was an Association de Victimes des Quinolones in france (closed, as one person doing all teh work) and it prooves taht doctors don't know, because over half the victim-members were themselves doctors or pharmacists and one works for a well-known pharaco and another at the French pharma-vigilance agency!

Even the tap water in many places contains psychotropics and antibiotics. Even rivers do.

By teh way, most poultry, meat and farmed fish contains Fqs, even 'organic' ones in many countries. I suppose that means milk does, too.

Really, we aren't safer and aren't much more free than common people were in the 17th century or even earlier. We just think we are.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

yes. It's pathetic of us, as well as wrong of them. I think there is an ethos of irresponsibility, that we needn't take good care of ourselves and that when there's any kind of problem we rush to a professional or a substance to solve it. But that's what we are taught. It's a lack of respect towards individuals and indivudal freedom and judgement. They will eevn force people to take stuff, literally, physically force tyhem. (But no-one forced me to this - I did all by my stupid self. :( )

Also, you said about God. I think that we have put teh medical profession in teh place that was occupied by religion. I think that most people (in teh westr and devloped countries, anyway) are so terified of theri own mortality that they will cling to something to avoid facing it, that they used to belive that they could be saved after death and their religion gave that promise; now a lot of people don't believe in anything spiritual, ghey try to stave off death by using modern medecine to extents that I fond ridiculous. So doctors are like priests and Know best, have a special link to longevity, if not to immortality. I think taht a similar thing applies to psychiatry - people hand over their feelings to a priofessional - and the harm can be just as great.

The way we are poisoned with pharamadrugs reminds me of things like the Children's Crusade, or some of the conquests in Africa or S. America, in teh name of religion - but NOT of God.

For that matter, it's similar to "spreaidng democracy" by violence and we all know where taht's happening.

Anyone want to buy a secondhand soapbox?

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

Just a little bit off-subject, but now you are a fan of feline loveliness, have a look at this www.icanhascheezburger.com. Gives me a little smile every day, and sometimes outbursts of inappropriate laughter in the office.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

[QUOTE=Easterndawn;8635995]


I don't think she needs to apologize. She stated her opinions and I agree.


I'm sorry Mistake is having problems but .....


We all take medicines at certain times in our lives, we all react differently to certain drugs. A doctor will not know if we will react but can make us aware of possible reactions. That's the reason pharmacists give you long printed out blurb on side effects etc. If we start to show signs of any of the side effects then it's time to stop.

I know that sometimes it is too late, and problems occur. My husband now has pancreatitis because of a bad reaction to medication. At the time the medicine was helping him recover from a bad infection after surgery, without it he may not have survived. His pancreatitis can flare up at any time and he has a very low immune system now as well. But plenty of other people have used this med and are fine......so what does the FDA do then; ban a medication that has bad side effects to some but can help millions of others with no problems??


I hope you make it back to the UK Mistake and get the help you need but please please do not try to scare people into refusing meds that may be saving their lives. You are not a medical expert, advising people to talk to their doctor before starting a new med is the best advise to give.

Good luck to you for the future.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

[QUOTE=Sugarmooma;8644805]I'm afraid you have compleettly missed the point, which is hardly suroprising if you haven't eevn read the whole thread carefully, let alone followed any links to infornmation. (For instance, you haven't eevn noticed taht i pointed out that the package insert is compelety diofferent in different countries, let alone any more complex points.) I'm not going to tire myseldf and bore other people by repeating any of it. I don't mind if you choose to take 500 quinolone tablets for a non-existent or minor infection; however, I see no reason not to make life-saving inofrmation availble to those who care to read it and who have the intelligence to appreciate it.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

[QUOTE=Mistake;8644843]Mistake, why would you say that this writer is unintelligent? She like myself has just given her opinion and because she does not agree with your you start writing very nasty contributions to the thread.
You stated that you were very happy and healthy and then you visited a Dr. who prescribed this medication, for what??? You seem like a very well read and intelligent person, so I am confused as to why you would first visit a Dr. if you were not feeling unwell and second why you would take pills prescribed without going on the internet and looking up the meds. :confused:
The other writer said nothing about taking quinolone so why would you be so vicious in your attack of her.:frown: Everyone appreciates the information that you have given but not eveyone is going to agree with it.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

First of all I am sorry to hear that you are in such a dark place at the moment. I feel many of us on this site have had real struggles in one way or another. Sometimes if you do not mind my saying it is good to think not always what is wrong in my life but what is good, there has to be something good for everyone.
I recently had a bad time, but through much thought, determination and self help I feel I am much stronger and feeling much more like my old self.
Have you thought instead of drugs having some sort of holistic therapies.?or taking herbal remedies. A holistic therapist will at least give you the time and listen to you, and treat your body as a whole which I rather think that is what you need, just someone to sit down and talk to and spend a bit of time trying to help you.
If I were in your shoes I would get back to UK, rent a place, ( it is still rocky over here to buy, we are not buying yet and are renting till things get better).
Our NHS gets a lot of critisism but really we are very lucky you would never be turned away and I feel sure you will eventually get the help you need. I very nearly moved away from this country, but now I am so glad to be here.
I really hope you find peace and happiness and a solution to all your problems and hope you will be here next year to tell us that you are feeling much better and things are working out, Where there is a struggle there is strength and you will be a much stronger person if you can just hang on in there.very best of luck to you.:)

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

[QUOTE=Easterndawn;8645006]No, easterndawn, i did not say that she was unintelligent, nor was I "nasty." I simply pointed ouit that, if people don't read a whole trhead at least fairly carfeulluy and if they don't bother to follow any links provided or to read the information in those links, it is pointless to try to have adiscussion, especially as a large part pf it would simply be repetition. You might as well try to discuss with me the relative merits of the latest Porsche and Lamborghini - I know nothing and have no intention of learning.

As for saying that about why i didn't go on the internet and look them up - well, that really is gratuitouis nastiness, in fact it's sadistic, but I'll be gracious and say no more about it, as long as you don't do it again.

(Incidentally, you have illustarted what I say, as you haven't notioced the reason i went to the doctor or the reason that the vast majprity of prescribees vsiited their doctors. Why on earth should I repeat what I've already written? If and when people read (not just a two-minute dismissive glance) enough of the available information (which includes, for instance, the advice of the European Medecines Agemncy) then we can have a useful discussion. Howeevr, i already know that if you did read enough of the availble information, you would no longer disagree!

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

[QUOTE=Mistake;8645041]Sorry, I do not understand why you say that looking up the medication that you had been given is gratuitouis nastiness. I never take any new medication without looking up the information on the internet, finding out the good and the bad and then making an informed decision. I have gone to many of the links and I have looked up information on my own, I agree that there is severe side effects to a percentage of the people from this drug can occur, but this can occur in anything that we inhale, use on our skin, ingest or even just come into contact in a daily basis. I have also found that many of the sites that the information is written is one sided and written by people who have a axe to grind about the pharma companies and the medical profession in general. I always take all the information that I recieve and make my own decisions based on that information. I am not saying that the decision may be correct but it is my decision and I have only myself to blame if it all goes wrong. I may give my opinion if asked or if trying as you say you are to warn someone but it is up to them to make their own mind up. I do hope that you get the help you need.

Re: Complicated or wot?
 

This was the first time in my entiore life that I've been to a doctor for an ordinary, minor complaint! Or eevn for more serious things. I always use homeopathy, herbs, etc. This was the first time.. I'd never have done it of i hadn't only just arrived here.. and the heat.. and thec rowds.. and and and I've gone over it a thousand times, as one does after a huge, direly harmful mistake.

That's kind of you, Nolimits, but after 11 months of reading thousands of documents and seeing all the internet forum victioms wasting vast sums and, more importantly, effort and hope, on alternative thearpies for FQ toxicity, I can tell you that nothing helps, except in very minor ways. Once one knows teh mechansim of action of FQs, it's obvious.

(About the getting through hard tiomes and how one approaches things and so on - if I told you my life story, you'd know that's like etaching yoru great-great-great-grandmother to suck eggs. But it's very nice of you to say - I do mean that - and you're right, only it's waht I've been doing since I was 3. And remember, i didn't post because I was miserablñe and sorry for myself. At firsy it was just for inforamtion about returning to England and then it developed to be about fluoroquinolones and the pharma industry and My Kitten (I suppose I'll have to post him to England if i can go back. Or perhaps he could have a tiny microverylite plane.. he is gorgeous.)

I do agree, though, that there'd be some doctors in Britain who already know and otehrs who'd be willing to know. And people, I mean ordinary people, as well as doctors. In Spain, there's been universal medical cover for only 19 years, so of course people are very respectful of anyone in a white coat. "But, Mistake, doctors know. They have machines to look inside you."