Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi there

My husband wants to move back to the UK. He's an IT Senior Project Manager. He's been in the UK for a couple of months looking and although he's getting the interviews, he's not getting the offers. He has a lot of experience, articulate, professional. When given questions, he answers them with strong examples. However the reasons given as to why he's not successful is because apparently he's not clear on the role being offered. I hasten again to say he's experienced, qualified, could do most of the jobs standing on his head.

I'm wondering since we've been away from the UK (12 years) are we missing something? Have things changed as far as interview techniques are concerned? Is it because North Americans have a different approach to filling roles, that the look for the overall package, not just ticking boxes.

Any view points appreciated.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

My guess, only a guess, is that he is suffering age discrimination. It comes on very gradually and is nearly impossible to prove outside a Trades Union context.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

He has only been in the UK for a couple of months - so a relatively short time to obtain work.

From other postings on this forum, taking several months to find a decent position is not uncommon no matter where you have moved from. The influx of European professionals to the UK has meant there is no shortage of good IT people.

He just needs to keep plugging away.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

As he is getting the interviews it appears he needs to work on how he presents himself at interview.

The last census showed 3 EU countries in the UK top 5 immigrants list, that weren't there before free movement when Europeans needed to have skills to get a visa to work in the UK. This data doesn't suggest an influx of European professionals: quite the reverse.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Just a quick question, does he talk much in the interview about how wonderful Canada was, do they ask questions about Canada not just his work there, just wondering if thats putting them off, knowing someone who moved back and did this and hit a wall till they stopped doing it!

I struggled to find work when I moved to Canada, hoping I dont have the same issue moving back to UK:(

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

OP, is he applying for jobs that are at the level he was at in Canada as an IT Senior Project Manager, or maybe he should apply for any IT related jpositions that he can get his foot in, which in time gives him the opportunity to move up or to find the job at the higher skill level he is capable of?

Or, to add to what other posters have indicated, is it possible he is over qualified, age is an issue or maybe the folks looking at hiring him see him as a potential 'he'll be gone when he finds a better job'?

What feedback is he giving you on why he isn't being hired?

Is he applying for a senior level jobs only?

Is it possible for him to do contract work through an agency rather than trying to land an full time job right off the bat?

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi Holly - it did cross my mind too, he's just turned 50

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi SanDiagoGirl - thanks for your response. I know a couple of months isn't long but it's more than that. he can do the jobs. if they were in Canada/Toronto he would be snapped up just like that.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi Isismom - thanks for responding. an interesting point of view, you might be on to something there!

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi Not2Old - thanks for responding. again you might be right. he is extremely experienced. I cannot believe for one moment he doesn't interview well. there is something in his answers that are not resonating with the interviewer. it could be age. and it is highly likely they consider him too experienced. but then why not say that when he asks for feedback? I can't help feeling that when it comes to recruiting it is different here in Canada to the UK. In the UK they just want to tick the boxes. In Canada I feel it is more about personality and whether it's a good fit. The rest can come with time and training if one or two of the boxes aren't ticked.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi Forumula - Thanks for your response. I feel strongly that he presents himself very well but well understand your conclusion. I can't feeling it's more subtle. Possibly age though he's a young 50 year old if there is such a thing:) All we know is that in Canada he would be snapped up.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Regarding the age thing, does he put his age on his CV or application?

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

No he doesn't but the year of his degree is.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Not always the case I'm afraid, many of our projects in my firm are very short time scales and we need someone who can hit the ground running. Our PMs rarely have the luxury of time or training.

Are there any job adverts you could link to that he didn't have luck with? Sometimes there are clear issues with people expecting to much for too little pay, etc.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

I will add my tuppence worth for in 2007 I returned to the UK having been gone and was only 48 then, MBA and 25 years corporate experience even senior management, Fortune 100 companies etc. The UK was then even before GFC all but impossible too old, too experienced and too expensive, prior to this having been in USA this would not have been any issue at all; now things there have changed. I would suggest contract consultancy work, experience could land him opportunities to make tenders on jobs where the company know they have no long term obligation. I do feel for him I would not put year of degree on CV I even left off experience and MBA only got temp work to start and ended up getting a lowly position in sales IBM Cognus BI put got offers from clients (not that my employer was too pleased) I didn't take them I have an issue with ethics but perhaps this is one avenue temp work could lead to something. Hope this helps.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Try the agency Jobs and recruitment – Michael Page UK | Michael Page (they are international, this is just the British site)

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Well it cant be his age as they obviously have a rough idea when they see his degree date

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Thanks so much for your response. He very much fully understands that he would need to hit the ground running. He was even in the Uk ready to start immediately if a contract came along.

What I meant by ticking boxes is that it seems to me in London they literally are looking for all boxes ticked. The roles he was meeting for would require someone with PM experience, but would also be expected to be a BA, and Programme Manager. It almost seems that the role/project is doomed from the start. That they literally want blood. One of the jobs was because the PM was on stress leave.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Thanks Globetrotta for sharing your experience, it's very much a helpful perspective. My husband wants the contract work/short term unfortunately many of the roles are short term full time jobs and the salaries are surprisingly low. We're beginning to think too many PMs in London and businesses can afford to pay low and expectations high and demanding. It's been an enlightening experience!

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hi Englishmum, thanks for sharing, will take a look.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

And he has the qualifactions/experience to get an interview.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Absolutely, over and above.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Hello Anne
What's happening to your husband is no different than what's happening in the US (and in other parts of the world).

Age discrimination could be a factor but I think the reason he can't find work is because companies will have to pay him a lot more than they would a twenty year old. Sorry to say, most corporations today only care about their bottom line. I went back to school, acquired a degree in accounting and the only job I could find is a part-time retail job. :thumbdown:

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

I can unequivocally say that in my 30 years there 1977 - 2007 pre GFC that was never the case, it was always about experience and age was the only way to get it. You are absolutely correct in that its all about bottom line but that is nothing new, that always was the case for a publicly traded company; Wall Street only cared about Sales, EBIT and EBITDA when I was at Lockheed and that was the case into the 2000's. What has emerged is a notion of lean and reduced overhead; more with less is nothing new that started in the 80's but keeping costs down since growth (SALES) have not and are not likely to grow at anywhere near the rates the did before for a number of reasons, so hiring 20 some things that not only cost less are less likely to get sick (in the company's eye's) can be worked to death are grateful for work and above all are ten a penny in the circular merry-go-round turnstile corporate world in USA where you can be dispensed at will.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

You're right globetrotta
It WAS about experience. Since the crash of 2008, the relationship between employee and employer, from what I've seen in the US anyway, has gotten worse.
Actually I have seen corporate nonsense since the 1990's but that's another story.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

It was never good to start with.

How can it be in such an unstable work environment when one is or was expected to work all the hours God gives even weekends for 2 weeks holiday p.a., be on call, unrealistic demands, and no job guarantee. I recall the adage 'work to live or live to work' was something we used to say late 70's and 80's clearly the former, that is as obsolete as 9 to 5 in USA; it was always about work in at 7am out maybe by 6pm if you were lucky, work on Saturday and get called on Sunday.

My corporate experience dates from circa 1980... and from the time I arrived in USA 1977 until I left including 80's the number of layoffs or mergers resulting in downsizing was horrendous, four times by 30, fortunately it was not seen as detrimental personally given the dynamics of corporate USA, especially in banking in 80's. But even at Lockheed they sold our division off made up of 17 different state divisions all to make money to pay off debt, the company that bought us ACS now has also been bought - its all about surfing and swimming, hopefully you get my meaning. But you cannot surf or swim if you can't get to the beach/ocean analogy for getting a job in case I was to cryptic. Playing field has dramatically changed makes me question why I ever bothered - should have known better, still one has great experience and worked with some great people, but I have never gotten another corporate job since 2009 GFC in UK saw to that. Still previous generations have had it worse, but they did not have globalised work forces to contend with. I wish anyone in similar situation the best of luck surviving this purge of the over 50's for we all knew a different time.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Maybe the solution is to become self-employed. One of the strong points of UK life is that it's relatively easy to setup shop, unlike many other EU countries. This will help you get established but allow you to apply for jobs along the way. Good luck.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Sounds familiar - sorry to say this may just be the state of the job market right now. I can't see this changing any time soon either.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

I have to concur, although it still requires pounding the street but ultimately as I had said by being a contractor or self employed company with correct insurance and willingness to sign non-disclosure agreements it reduces costs to perspective clients and it is as you say fairly quick to set up and has a low cost entry, website filing fees for business, some marketing material done in Publisher or some such programme then since one has to beat the bushes and streets get in front of HR people anyway for jobs one could also pitch the business, even as far as getting a network of people who have alternate skill sets. For example, say you are a BI specialist in IBM Cognos and a company you chat with needs a Sharepoint person or a Qlikview person, what if you had contacts established you could act as the broker take a percentage the company you set up offers such services you just act as a principal the Qlikview person is paid by your company. We have done this before with start-ups when we needed to present more than we were we have have lawyers accountants on retainer for services required when we did not have the skill set. Hope that makes sense; just trying to help.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

It's horrifying to think that even Lockheed would cut jobs because of corporate BS. I remember I worked in the banking industry and the bank I worked for was taken over. When the new owners came in they took everything that people vested for years and knocked it down to zero. How disgusting. There were employees six month to maybe three years away from retirement and they lost everything. Titles were stripped, vacation time lowered, etc. That's corporate for you.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

I can certainly relate...the last bank of an 8 year career that spanned several banks there were 320 of us in a centre all with portfolios mine totalling around $170M performance management related products loans across commercial, residential, agricultural etc making new loans servicing existing this was really just at the end of when one could make ones own decisions up to limits then present those in excess before credit committees and we had to calculate everything by hand but we did get credit reports. Only 2 got jobs...I survived to the last 6. But then onto a university job that gave me a great 9 years before Lockheed and sometimes you leave when the people above you go that you like or the culture changes one must always have executive support well that was a rule I lived by and it worked for all those MBA wannabes they don't teach you that. We too had many who were even older than I am now that were just cast adrift ruined into trailer parks. Bank mergers and take overs were rife in Colorado due to it being the last state to have interstate banking and when it opened the borders JHC the flood...up until then one had to do participation loans where we shared risk with other banks on big deals like insurance reduce the burdern because they were so under capitalised. All great experinece and training and for what I ask myself. Smile and keep on while one is breathing!

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

All the more reason to become independent. Loyalty to your employer is no longer of any value it seems. You are just a number. Loyalty in the other direction has also been wiped out.
It's all about low wages and zero hour contracts these days, the whole work ethic is going through a massive evolution..but where will it end?..

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

This notion of zero hour contracts is abhorrent almost as bad as the casual status here in Australia with 40% of all jobs being casual no guarantee at all although higher base hourly wage. In the USA early 90's period under Clinton he would brag about job growth and the joke was yep true and I have 3 of them jobs just to make a living wage. Your other point is spot on where does it end. Digressing to football, if one thinks back way before players agents and Bosman's to when Jimmy Hill managed as the player's rep to transfer power from clubs to players if he knew then what it would do to the game I wonder whether he would have fought so hard. Makes one wonder where it will go corporately with contracts, loyalty and a fair salary with bonuses et al. all but gone, the implosion must happen.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Globetrotta, Calman
Thank you both. it's nice to read that someone else understands what's really going on around the world. I've been saying this for years and everybody thought I was crazy and an anarchist and so on. I'm not looking for trouble, I'm trying to prevent trouble by waking people up but either nobody cares or they're afraid. It's true IMPLOSION is imminent. If corporations and other people in power keep taking advantage, you're going to see chaos. It's already starting here in the US. You know something, I believe these power mongers want societal destruction instead of finding solutions to problems. One problem being what this thread is about, JOBS.

p.s. Is the job market that bad in the UK? I thought you could find a job if you were willing to work and not take advantage of their benefits.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Same everywhere in Europe..

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

Sadly, it's true.

It has already reached a point in Europe where a Euro in your pocket is worth more than a Euro in "your" bank account. True (for dollars) also in USA, but not nearly so acute. Coming very soon to Britain.
But very few will believe it until it is too late. The profitable way out of a bubble or Ponzi scheme is to panic before everyone else does.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

I am the UK citizen and my husband the US citizen. We just came back from the UK as I wanted to go home. We just couldn't make it work. Firstly, even though we hold senior management roles in the US, we couldn't find jobs. I didn't recognize London anymore - it felt strange after 12 years away and it has really gone downhill in that time. My husband had three or four interviews at some firms but then they wouldn't call him again. It really was a horrible experience. Everything felt so depressed and nothing was easy or straightforward. I am glad we went back as it made me realize how lucky we are here in the US. My husband had a great job offer 2 weeks after we came back to the US and I am now concentrating on my citizenship so I can have my elderly parents move here with us. That is probably somewhat of a minefield with healthcare etc but I will raise that on another thread. Hope this helps.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

London has gone downhill? Shocked to read that. I thought London was supposed to be the upscale, posh city that most of the population wants to visit. What should the citizens do to bring it back to life?

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

To be fair to London, it still is an upscale city if you can afford a lifestyle that allows you to enjoy that side of it. Unfortunately, with housing costs far exceeding income levels, demand for jobs and housing, over crowding, crime, exorbitant taxes and a whole host of other government mandated schemes and rules that just add to the pain, it's not a place where I can enjoy the same lifestyle I enjoy in the U.S. I found a lot of my friends and family were tired of "battling" to get on the housing ladder or move up, and to find jobs that paid them their worth or allowed any flexibility or room for growth.

The level of general immigration has also added to the fundamental issues and this is certainly creating a divide. Government assistance programs are crippling the economy (IMO) and those receiving government aid and are not incentivized to live independently, and are stuck in the benefits system.

Healthcare is pretty horrendous (or at least the NHS socialized system is). it was not designed to support the numbers of users it does, and is crippled with the weight of demand. Education is also a major issue and getting your child into a good school is very difficult. Getting them into a halfway decent school is in fact a slog.

I felt overall that I wanted a better life for my family and especially for my daughter and returned to the U.S.

Re: Cannot get a job in UK
 

A very good post..I think it gives a very good illustration of the general state of the UK at the moment..especially for those like me who are still pondering whether to return to UK. It compares well to my own assessments of the status quo. The "London" thing is also a problem area for those wanting to live in or around the city.