So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Jun 2nd 2005, 1:55 pm
#1
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So just what is the deal with Riyadh
All,
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
Last edited by NedKelly63; Jun 2nd 2005 at 1:59 pm. Reason: Title typo
Jun 3rd 2005, 12:49 pm
#2
Yes, Master...
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: U.S./Dubai
Posts: 1,159
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by NedKelly63
All,
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
Yes, Riyadh does seem to be where most of the nutters live. It's also the seat of Wahabi-ism, Old Diriyah being the original village where the kings lived before building all the opulent palaces downtown. It's a violent culture, stretching back to the time when the original tribes fought it out for the ultimate power in the kingdom. The Mullahs preach jihad in the mosques and the government doesn't do enough to control it (they give a lot of mouth service, but not enough enforcing), so it's out of control. The Saudi youth are so bored and lazy, all they can manage is terrorizing people. I tutored three Saudi children in English for a couple of years and the two teenagers basically had no ambition to succeed in school or in life because the girl figured she would just get married and pop out babies and the boy said his father was a rich man who would pay for everything, so why should he bother!
Riyadh used to be a lovely place to live and it was really wonderful for raising our kids in a relatively safe environment; but after May 12, 2003, it became a horrible military state full of crazy people.
If you have any other questions, both Jammy Dodgers and I lived there until last year and we can give you more detailed information.
Later, Tami
Jun 3rd 2005, 2:03 pm
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Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Tami2
Hi Ned,
Yes, Riyadh does seem to be where most of the nutters live. It's also the seat of Wahabi-ism, Old Diriyah being the original village where the kings lived before building all the opulent palaces downtown. It's a violent culture, stretching back to the time when the original tribes fought it out for the ultimate power in the kingdom. The Mullahs preach jihad in the mosques and the government doesn't do enough to control it (they give a lot of mouth service, but not enough enforcing), so it's out of control. The Saudi youth are so bored and lazy, all they can manage is terrorizing people. I tutored three Saudi children in English for a couple of years and the two teenagers basically had no ambition to succeed in school or in life because the girl figured she would just get married and pop out babies and the boy said his father was a rich man who would pay for everything, so why should he bother!
Riyadh used to be a lovely place to live and it was really wonderful for raising our kids in a relatively safe environment; but after May 12, 2003, it became a horrible military state full of crazy people.
If you have any other questions, both Jammy Dodgers and I lived there until last year and we can give you more detailed information.
Later, Tami
Yes, Riyadh does seem to be where most of the nutters live. It's also the seat of Wahabi-ism, Old Diriyah being the original village where the kings lived before building all the opulent palaces downtown. It's a violent culture, stretching back to the time when the original tribes fought it out for the ultimate power in the kingdom. The Mullahs preach jihad in the mosques and the government doesn't do enough to control it (they give a lot of mouth service, but not enough enforcing), so it's out of control. The Saudi youth are so bored and lazy, all they can manage is terrorizing people. I tutored three Saudi children in English for a couple of years and the two teenagers basically had no ambition to succeed in school or in life because the girl figured she would just get married and pop out babies and the boy said his father was a rich man who would pay for everything, so why should he bother!
Riyadh used to be a lovely place to live and it was really wonderful for raising our kids in a relatively safe environment; but after May 12, 2003, it became a horrible military state full of crazy people.
If you have any other questions, both Jammy Dodgers and I lived there until last year and we can give you more detailed information.
Later, Tami
And I have found a lot of contributions from JD and yourself on this subject which have been useful (scarey :scared: )
Over the next 30 mins or so, I will be post some pretty basic/stupid questions, so please bear with me. I do understand that I must try my best to be 'unseen', alter travel patterns etc. and as a 6ft blue eyed fair skinned jock - I know I will stand out unless I am careful.
Thanks again,,
Ned
Jun 3rd 2005, 2:12 pm
#4
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Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Abu Dhabi soon
Posts: 4,123
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
NK
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
Jun 3rd 2005, 2:24 pm
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Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Truth Speak
NK
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
Jennfer Connelly anyday!
Ned
Jun 3rd 2005, 2:27 pm
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2004
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Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Truth Speak
NK
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
I was there last week - its a lot better but u still haver to watch your back and change your routine......
You must be nutty going to work there.......
TRIN
THX
Ned
Jun 3rd 2005, 2:53 pm
#7
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Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Hi Ned,
I've seen your posting and the few replies you got on it. It's ofcourse true what Tami has wrote about Riyadh. I myself have lived in Saudi Arabia for nearly 11 years, and for business, I am still there on a regular basis. I was in Riyadh last month, sure it's a scary sight to see all that military might and police around you, I don't denie that. I to am thinking of going back for a third time, only I'm heading more south then you are to Al Khobar / Dammam area. A lot of trouble you can avoid by using your common sence. In a nut shell? These are the tips I would give you as a newbie.
1. Upon arriving, try to find a more experienced expat to go along with for a while. Most expats will offer you that service as it is. Riyadh knows areas where you as a European really aren't welcome or want to get lost in. But I think that applies to more cities in the Middle East.
2. Don't forget as a none muslim, you are entering a muslim world. That your views differ from theres? Is only natural, but don't and I repeat don't go into political discussions with them. Staying nutural will be respected by the real educated Saudi's.
3. If you're invited to a (trusted) Saudi's house? You may consider that a huge compliment towards yourself. Refusing such an invitation is considered rude. There is one unwritten law among the Saudi's Ned, that means what a man (or women) speaks about within the walls of there house, remains there. Sure there are a lot of animals under the Saudi's, but also a lot of well educated and friendly people.
4. When traveling always see to it you have your drivers license and Iqama (the little brown book for none muslims) with you. If stopped by the police? Don't go into an argument trying to avoid the fine or the fact you'll spend 24 hours in jail. Most Saudi police with 3 or more stars on there shoulder check the jail lists and most probebly with think "Which idiot locked this guy up?" and will have you out in no time.
5. Where there's a lot of royalty? There's a lot of Royal Guard police also. The famous dark red police cars. These guys you WANT to take serious as there main goal is to protect the Royal Family. If you get into trouble with them, althought the chances are slim, you really can say "I'm up shit creek". What I learned? Where I see Royal Gard walk in? I walk out really politely, even if it means breaking off a business meeting.
6. I don't know if you're married? So I don't know if wife and childern will be coming along as well? If yes, I for sure go for a good 4 to 5 star expat compound. If you're single? Well it's up to you.
7. Try to adjust to there world Ned, I know it may sound rediculous, but a lot of expats I know don't even want to try. And when trouble comes? Well you can imagine the rest.
8. Saudi Arabia knows prayer times, 5 per day to be percise. Shops, offices, and god knows what else close during prayer time. If you hear the call for prayer? It's wise to head out of the shop and just wait. In some cities like Jeddah, women and small childern are allowed to remain inside. During Ramadan (the holy month of the Muslims. It's no drinking, eating and smoking in public from sun rise to sun set. Most Saudi's will start living at night then.
9. The IED holidays, basically the two most important holidays for the Saudi's. The Ied Al Fitter and the Ied Al Fatter (If I spelled it correctly) the first, just after Ramadan ends is the big one where commercial companies close for 4 days, goverment employee's and banks for seven days. The IED holidays are traditionally family holidays for the Saudi's. That you are offered a gift during these days is fairly normal.
10. If you need to travel alot, a 365 day travel letter from your sponsor is needed, this allows you to travel freely throughout the Kingdom. Domestic flights are really dirt cheap. But Saudia? Not for nothing I put 680.000 kilometers on various cars. I absolutely HATE Saudia. 90% of the captains might be Americans, as for the rest of the staff? Arrogance in living form.
11. If you need to drive alot? Get a big, and esspecially heavy car. The average Saudi? Really doesn't know how to drive very well to say it mildly. Also get a second spare (real) tire. Always keep in the back of your trunk a jerrycan with water, and atleast a box with 12 bottles drinking water.
12. Driving through the desert at night time? Camels? Love the warm asfalt. But... That's 1500 kilo's of meat lying there in the dark. And by the time you see them cruising along at 140 kilometers per hour? I guess I don't need to go into impact details. Just ALWAYS keep it in the back of your head okay?
13. If you see an accident? And I know it's difficult, as I've hade to do it twice. NEVER EVER STOP TO HELP!!!!! Even if you recognise the Saudi logo for Royal Family or Core Diplomatique. I mean it, do like I did, close your eye's for a second and step on the gas petal okay? I only stop if I recognise Europeans or Americans in a car accident. Saudi Arabia knows the so called Blood Laws. This means although you are innosent, a Saudi family can hold you responsible and have you jailed for God knows how long. Yes, it makes you as a human being feel sick to the bone, but I to have friends and family in Holland I wanted to see again.
14. If you do go off roading as it's called? And you bump into a Bedo tent? These people aren't the cannibals everyone calls them. There's one basic rull, If the family head gives you the signal to sit? You sit Ned... If he signals for you to eat? You eat the dates offered to you... If he signals for you to drink? You drink the goats milk... It won't kill you okay? And afterwards? When he offers you the Arabic coffee? You drink it okay? At the third cup you can shake your cup, meaning you don't want more. (I survived the ritual four times Ned) It's there way of showing hospitality. Refuse it? And it's the biggest insult you can give a Bedo there is. In that case? I hope you can run really fast. He won't kill you, but you can say "My back and butt needs very soft pillows for a few days". Get my drift?
15. Last but surely important? Get a damn good world receiver radio. Sony has one that works really good in Saudi Arabia. BBC, CNN Radio to mention a few? They can't censor.
16. Medicines? Get an international Doctor's certificate for them. If Saudi customs take them? Hand over the certificate, in most cases you can come back the next day and collect them again. (I sometimes run into that problem as I have medicines myself)
In a nutshell? That's what I can think of for advise Ned, besides everything I already mentioned in your other posting. Just use your common sence Ned, that's all.
Frans
I've seen your posting and the few replies you got on it. It's ofcourse true what Tami has wrote about Riyadh. I myself have lived in Saudi Arabia for nearly 11 years, and for business, I am still there on a regular basis. I was in Riyadh last month, sure it's a scary sight to see all that military might and police around you, I don't denie that. I to am thinking of going back for a third time, only I'm heading more south then you are to Al Khobar / Dammam area. A lot of trouble you can avoid by using your common sence. In a nut shell? These are the tips I would give you as a newbie.
1. Upon arriving, try to find a more experienced expat to go along with for a while. Most expats will offer you that service as it is. Riyadh knows areas where you as a European really aren't welcome or want to get lost in. But I think that applies to more cities in the Middle East.
2. Don't forget as a none muslim, you are entering a muslim world. That your views differ from theres? Is only natural, but don't and I repeat don't go into political discussions with them. Staying nutural will be respected by the real educated Saudi's.
3. If you're invited to a (trusted) Saudi's house? You may consider that a huge compliment towards yourself. Refusing such an invitation is considered rude. There is one unwritten law among the Saudi's Ned, that means what a man (or women) speaks about within the walls of there house, remains there. Sure there are a lot of animals under the Saudi's, but also a lot of well educated and friendly people.
4. When traveling always see to it you have your drivers license and Iqama (the little brown book for none muslims) with you. If stopped by the police? Don't go into an argument trying to avoid the fine or the fact you'll spend 24 hours in jail. Most Saudi police with 3 or more stars on there shoulder check the jail lists and most probebly with think "Which idiot locked this guy up?" and will have you out in no time.
5. Where there's a lot of royalty? There's a lot of Royal Guard police also. The famous dark red police cars. These guys you WANT to take serious as there main goal is to protect the Royal Family. If you get into trouble with them, althought the chances are slim, you really can say "I'm up shit creek". What I learned? Where I see Royal Gard walk in? I walk out really politely, even if it means breaking off a business meeting.
6. I don't know if you're married? So I don't know if wife and childern will be coming along as well? If yes, I for sure go for a good 4 to 5 star expat compound. If you're single? Well it's up to you.
7. Try to adjust to there world Ned, I know it may sound rediculous, but a lot of expats I know don't even want to try. And when trouble comes? Well you can imagine the rest.
8. Saudi Arabia knows prayer times, 5 per day to be percise. Shops, offices, and god knows what else close during prayer time. If you hear the call for prayer? It's wise to head out of the shop and just wait. In some cities like Jeddah, women and small childern are allowed to remain inside. During Ramadan (the holy month of the Muslims. It's no drinking, eating and smoking in public from sun rise to sun set. Most Saudi's will start living at night then.
9. The IED holidays, basically the two most important holidays for the Saudi's. The Ied Al Fitter and the Ied Al Fatter (If I spelled it correctly) the first, just after Ramadan ends is the big one where commercial companies close for 4 days, goverment employee's and banks for seven days. The IED holidays are traditionally family holidays for the Saudi's. That you are offered a gift during these days is fairly normal.
10. If you need to travel alot, a 365 day travel letter from your sponsor is needed, this allows you to travel freely throughout the Kingdom. Domestic flights are really dirt cheap. But Saudia? Not for nothing I put 680.000 kilometers on various cars. I absolutely HATE Saudia. 90% of the captains might be Americans, as for the rest of the staff? Arrogance in living form.
11. If you need to drive alot? Get a big, and esspecially heavy car. The average Saudi? Really doesn't know how to drive very well to say it mildly. Also get a second spare (real) tire. Always keep in the back of your trunk a jerrycan with water, and atleast a box with 12 bottles drinking water.
12. Driving through the desert at night time? Camels? Love the warm asfalt. But... That's 1500 kilo's of meat lying there in the dark. And by the time you see them cruising along at 140 kilometers per hour? I guess I don't need to go into impact details. Just ALWAYS keep it in the back of your head okay?
13. If you see an accident? And I know it's difficult, as I've hade to do it twice. NEVER EVER STOP TO HELP!!!!! Even if you recognise the Saudi logo for Royal Family or Core Diplomatique. I mean it, do like I did, close your eye's for a second and step on the gas petal okay? I only stop if I recognise Europeans or Americans in a car accident. Saudi Arabia knows the so called Blood Laws. This means although you are innosent, a Saudi family can hold you responsible and have you jailed for God knows how long. Yes, it makes you as a human being feel sick to the bone, but I to have friends and family in Holland I wanted to see again.
14. If you do go off roading as it's called? And you bump into a Bedo tent? These people aren't the cannibals everyone calls them. There's one basic rull, If the family head gives you the signal to sit? You sit Ned... If he signals for you to eat? You eat the dates offered to you... If he signals for you to drink? You drink the goats milk... It won't kill you okay? And afterwards? When he offers you the Arabic coffee? You drink it okay? At the third cup you can shake your cup, meaning you don't want more. (I survived the ritual four times Ned) It's there way of showing hospitality. Refuse it? And it's the biggest insult you can give a Bedo there is. In that case? I hope you can run really fast. He won't kill you, but you can say "My back and butt needs very soft pillows for a few days". Get my drift?
15. Last but surely important? Get a damn good world receiver radio. Sony has one that works really good in Saudi Arabia. BBC, CNN Radio to mention a few? They can't censor.
16. Medicines? Get an international Doctor's certificate for them. If Saudi customs take them? Hand over the certificate, in most cases you can come back the next day and collect them again. (I sometimes run into that problem as I have medicines myself)
In a nutshell? That's what I can think of for advise Ned, besides everything I already mentioned in your other posting. Just use your common sence Ned, that's all.
Frans
Last edited by Frans Wind; Jun 3rd 2005 at 4:17 pm.
Jun 3rd 2005, 3:17 pm
#8
UAE Expat
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
And one more thing Ned,
Go online in Saudi Arabia? Internet or Intranet? You might think your smart and know ways of avoiding detection. Beleave me? You are watched. Be very careful what you do online okay? Hiding your IP address? Software wise? You MIGHT think you're doing that, but you're not. A lot of people consider the average Saudi as being dirt under there shoes. The Royal Gaurd (The guys that tap into just about everything) really DO know all the tricks there are. Beleave me...
My advise? Open a public provider email account like Yahoo or MSN, these servers are checked shitless anyhow. Send everything (within the Kingdom) to that account. Outside of the Kingdom? Access you master email account only (the serious and private stuff). It's called using your brain "High Tech" style. And if you really want to play it as safe as possible? I don't have to tell you that "Cloning" a local IP address isn't that difficult to do right?
Frans
Go online in Saudi Arabia? Internet or Intranet? You might think your smart and know ways of avoiding detection. Beleave me? You are watched. Be very careful what you do online okay? Hiding your IP address? Software wise? You MIGHT think you're doing that, but you're not. A lot of people consider the average Saudi as being dirt under there shoes. The Royal Gaurd (The guys that tap into just about everything) really DO know all the tricks there are. Beleave me...
My advise? Open a public provider email account like Yahoo or MSN, these servers are checked shitless anyhow. Send everything (within the Kingdom) to that account. Outside of the Kingdom? Access you master email account only (the serious and private stuff). It's called using your brain "High Tech" style. And if you really want to play it as safe as possible? I don't have to tell you that "Cloning" a local IP address isn't that difficult to do right?
Frans
Last edited by Frans Wind; Jun 3rd 2005 at 3:35 pm.
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:06 pm
#9
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2005
Location: recently returned expat
Posts: 98
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by NedKelly63
All,
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
I've been trawling around this forum today looking at the various opinions expressed by contributors about safety/security/advice for Riyadh.
In most of the contributions, Riyadh is singled out as perhaps the most dangerous place to stay in Saudi. Can anyone tell me why or is it simply because thats where all the nutters live?
Thanks,
Ned
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:07 pm
#10
UAE Expat
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Piccolo
I left in 1998 so obviously a lot has changed since then but we have friends and colleagues still there.
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:17 pm
#11
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2005
Location: recently returned expat
Posts: 98
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Frans Wind
Same here Piccolo, expats friends and Saudi friends. How are you?
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:19 pm
#12
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Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Piccolo
I'm fine Frans. How are you? Think I am too optimistic for most of the forums!
It's good to see one of the old school expats on here. Didn't mean that as an insult. Welcome to the family Piccolo, everyone's unique in his or her own way.
Frans
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:26 pm
#13
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Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Piccolo
I'm fine Frans. How are you? Think I am too optimistic for most of the forums!
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:26 pm
#14
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2005
Location: recently returned expat
Posts: 98
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Originally Posted by Frans Wind
Hi Piccolo,
It's good to see one of the old school expats on here. Didn't mean that as an insult. Welcome to the family Piccolo, everyone's unique in his or her own way.
Frans
It's good to see one of the old school expats on here. Didn't mean that as an insult. Welcome to the family Piccolo, everyone's unique in his or her own way.
Frans
OK I'll keep trying. Went to nice Saudi houses a few times. Once a huge house was being built opposite us and when people were moving in I went to introduce myself. Was invited to ladies house warming where we were shown around the whole house. Many of the Saudi young women had been to UK whilst hubby studied so it was funny to hear Saudi children with broad Scottish accents. I think it is much harder for single men in Saudi to get invited to people's homes. Does Ned know about bachelors seating in restaurant!?
Jun 3rd 2005, 4:29 pm
#15
UAE Expat
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 3,393
Re: So just what is the deal with Riyadh
Does Ned know about bachelors seating in restaurant!?[/QUOTE]
Well I guess the more experienced expats will point that out to him Piccolo. So you're a woman right? I've been invited to a Saudi's house on several occassions. Okay, it's men only, but WOW!!! do I love the Saudi food. Awesome!!! It's only the damn tea that gets me as I usually don't drink tea. Far to much sugar and mint leaves in it.
Well I guess the more experienced expats will point that out to him Piccolo. So you're a woman right? I've been invited to a Saudi's house on several occassions. Okay, it's men only, but WOW!!! do I love the Saudi food. Awesome!!! It's only the damn tea that gets me as I usually don't drink tea. Far to much sugar and mint leaves in it.