Rug Shops

Old Mar 18th 2012, 6:30 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Why on earth pay more than AED999 for a quality Persian, Kashmir or Afghan rug? This is the United Arab Emirates for goodness sake.
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 6:38 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by mentalist
Why on earth pay more than AED999 for a quality Persian, Kashmir or Afghan rug? This is the United Arab Emirates for goodness sake.
No shit - do you think this is why I asked the question?
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 6:41 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by Millhouse
I was forced by Mrs Millhouse into asking the rug question - She said I was cool enough to be able to carry it off. Lying bitch.
You ain't Chuck Norris, MH..... and ONLY he could pull it off...
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 9:19 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

If there’s one thing I know about its rugs.

And I know this: unfortunately Dubai is one of the worst places to buy good quality Persian/Caucasian rugs. Most of what’s available is either exceedingly inferior or exceedingly overpriced and quite often both.

For the sake of simplicity I will divide Persian rugs into two categories:

1) Older, including tribal, Persian rugs. These are the rugs common in the west and have the distinctive styles we commonly associate with rugs. Think Heriz, Qashqai, Shiraz, Malayer, Mahal, Sultanabad rugs. The patterns tend to be a mixture of geometric with woven tree of life/flowers and the colours dominated by deep reds, purples, blues, greens etc. These are the rugs you see on the floor of English stately homes.

2) New Persian rugs. Very flowery, shiny with bright colours. Think Nain, Qum, Isfahan or even the newer Tabriz rugs. Many of these are now woven in Pakistan and India. They are very popular with Middle Easterners.

99% of the Persians available in Dubai are from category #2. The unfortunate reality is that the art of hand-woven rugs has disappeared from much of Iran so you simply don’t get new versions of the older regional tribal rugs that were so beloved in the West.

Rug dealers have turned the simple process of buying rugs into an art of smooth salesmanship, especially Middle Eastern dealers who prey on people’s sensibilities and the glamour associated with buying rugs. Naïve tourists go to Turkey or the Middle East thinking they can find a bargain. Experienced rug experts know never to buy rugs in Turkey or the Middle East and that the best bargains are quite often in the UK and the US for people have been importing rugs to the West for hundreds of years and local auction houses are filled with people selling off the old Heriz from grandmama’s house. The specialist rug auctions at Bonhams and Christies are especially good value and I've bought a few pieces from them over the years.

Ironically it’s now often easier to find good quality older Persians in the West than in the Middle East or even Iran. Damascus is probably the best place in the ME to buy rugs as it was the one place where Iranian tourists could easily visit and they’d bring their old rugs to sell for some tourist moolah, but Syria is pretty much off limits now.

What are good prices for rugs? A sneaky dealer will say that if you fall in love with a rug what does it matter what you pay for it if you’re happy with it? Fair enough, but a stingy bastard like me knows that since I’ve bought a large Malayer rug, circa 1920s, in excellent condition, at a specialist auction in London for £1,500, why would I want to pay triple or quadruple that for an inferior new Persian in Dubai?

Old Persians in good conditions start for at as low as a hundred or so for smaller pieces and go up to a few thousand for larger pieces. It’s not worth it for most people to spend more than £3-4,000 on a rug as you’re now getting into the specialist collector field and its only worth spending the money if you genuinely care about a rug's provenance and history rather than as a decorative element.

99.99% of rugs are NOT investments, regardless of what dealers try to tell you. A case point is this acquaintance who fell under the spell of a Dubai dealer, lavished out 25,000 AED for a shiny new Persian rug, moved back to London and decided the rug was too big for his cramped and overpriced London terraced house, and tried to sell it. The dealers in Dubai assured him the rug would never lose its value, would always be a good investment blah blah blah. The specialist rug shops and dealers in London wouldn’t touch his rug with a ten foot pole as it’s not a style the British public prefers and appreciates. He was redirected to several stores catering to a Middle Eastern clientele, and even there he was only offered a quarter of what he’d paid in Dubai.

It’s not my intention to be all doom and gloom. Good deals in Dubai are Pakistani rugs. Sturdy, decent looking, handwoven and pretty good quality, whose value is reduced by their sheer commonality. I’ve bought a 2x3m Pakistani rug for as low as 1,000 AED though it wasn’t as good as the Bokhara I picked up in Lahore for the same price (possibly as good a quality as a Bokhara can get with an incredibly high knot per cm count). The rug shops at the Blue Souk will offer the best deals for Pakistanis in Dubai but make it clear that you’re a resident and not a naïve tourist, never pay more than 60% the original asking price and be perfectly willing to laugh and walk out of the shop.

You may not like Ikea but Ikea does have half-decent Pakistani and Indian rugs for sale. They will be handwoven and 100% wool and capable enough of withstanding 100 x Mini-Millhouse.

If you prefer more modern/non Persian style rugs, Pottery Barn in MoE had a number of pleasant rugs and well priced. Almost bought one that was 100% wool from New Zealand and a modern twist on an arts and crafts pattern.

By the way, if you go to a specialist rug store or the Blue Souk (still well worth the visit even if you don’t buy anything) don’t listen too much to the blah blah about knots per inch or natural versus industrial dyes. They are important but only to an extent and not as much as the dealers claim. What you don’t want is cheap dye as it’ll bleed and stain if Mini Millhouse drops his apple juice on the rug. The dealer I liked the most has one of the largest shops in the wing of the souk closest to the lagoon and towards the west/sea side (the last shop in his wing). You'll notice the professional difference as soon as you walk into the shop and while he has a range of rugs his speciality is caucasian rugs. Always liked the dealer even though I never bought anything off him but he knows his stuff, unlike the rest of the dealers in the souk.

Last edited by Ethos83; Mar 18th 2012 at 9:27 am.
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 9:27 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

A very informative post, Ethos. Can you be more specific about the identity of your favourite Blue Souq shop. Are there no similar dealers here in Dubai? What about the Friday market on the old road to Fujeirah? Fortunately, the design I love the most is mass-produced in Jeddah and costs only AED100-699but then I am The Mentalist.
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 9:43 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

here is a beautiful piece of rugmanship i found in one of the souks in Batha in Riyadh
Attached Thumbnails Rug Shops-26032010098.jpg  
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 9:48 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by weasel decentral
here is a beautiful piece of rugmanship i found in one of the souks in Batha in Riyadh
I'd love a mouse mat version of that
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 11:17 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by Ethos83

"the glamour associated with buying rugs".
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Old Mar 18th 2012, 10:26 pm
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by Ethos83
....1) Older, including tribal, Persian rugs. These are the rugs common in the west and have the distinctive styles we commonly associate with rugs. Think Heriz, Qashqai, Shiraz, Malayer, Mahal, Sultanabad rugs. The patterns tend to be a mixture of geometric with woven tree of life/flowers and the colours dominated by deep reds, purples, blues, greens etc. These are the rugs you see on the floor of English stately homes....
Is this that type of rug?

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Old Mar 19th 2012, 9:21 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

No.

The rug in the link is a Pakistani rug. Relatively recent, could be any age between yesterday and 30 years ago. Clearly made for the mass export market due to the odd colour combination and pattern of the weave - the light grey border surrounding a darker central pattern is not popular within Pakistan. Rather uncommon anywhere actually. The rug weave is based on the bokhara or turkoman styles but is decidedly a reproduction rather than anything intrinsic. Rugs like these can be found at car boot sales across England and a sharp buyer will walk away with one for £50 or less.

Originally Posted by Jackwow
Decent examples of good antique Persians are: http://www.antiquerugs.com.au/Persian_Village.html or http://www.antiquerugs.com.au/Turkma...20Belouch.html

Last edited by Ethos83; Mar 19th 2012 at 9:35 am.
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Old Mar 19th 2012, 9:32 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

I poked around google for the shop but still can't remember the name. He's been in the souk since the 1970s and looked well established so I imagine he's still there.

The location of the shop: of the two long wings that comprise the souk, it's in the south wing (the side towards the lagoon) and on the upper level with all the carpet shops and is the last shop towards the west (Arabian Gulf) end. He had many caucasian rugs as well as a good sampling of everything else. The shop owner is Egyptian but looks Turkish. His rugs still don't compare with what I can get in London but then again hardly anywhere else does.

There is another rug shop that did have interesting rugs and it's in Satwa on Plant Street opposite the Iranian Hospital (Al hudeiba street?). The shop has a large window overlooking the street and rugs are prominently displayed behind the window. Unfortunately the shop is massively overpriced. Still worth a visit to poke around and see the latest loot smuggled over from Iran. Many of the rugs are of the older and tribal variety I prefer and while some of them are acceptable they aren't sophisticated enough for my taste and the quality is often too dubious to justify the prices he charges.


Originally Posted by mentalist
A very informative post, Ethos. Can you be more specific about the identity of your favourite Blue Souq shop. Are there no similar dealers here in Dubai? What about the Friday market on the old road to Fujeirah? Fortunately, the design I love the most is mass-produced in Jeddah and costs only AED100-699but then I am The Mentalist.

Last edited by Ethos83; Mar 19th 2012 at 9:37 am.
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Old Mar 19th 2012, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: Rug Shops

by Weasel Decentral
'here is a beautiful piece of rugmanship i found in one of the souks in Batha in Riyadh'
by Millhouse
'I'd love a mouse mat version of that'
Me too
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Old Mar 19th 2012, 8:50 pm
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by BinCat
by Weasel Decentral
'here is a beautiful piece of rugmanship i found in one of the souks in Batha in Riyadh'
by Millhouse
'I'd love a mouse mat version of that'
Me too
didnt think mouse mats were still used in these days of optical mouses but if you are that keen i will mail the original picture and you can get one made
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Old Mar 20th 2012, 10:40 pm
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by Ethos83
If there’s one thing I know about its rugs.

And I know this: unfortunately Dubai is one of the worst places to buy good quality Persian/Caucasian rugs. Most of what’s available is either exceedingly inferior or exceedingly overpriced and quite often both.

.....................
.............
That is some top notch info. You are an absolute nerd!

I bought two hand-knotted Afghan Khan Mohammadi rugs from a chap who came to our house in Bahrain. I'm sure he sweet talked me a little bit, but his rugs looked really good quality (he had a van full of all sorts) and he gave me what I considered to be quite a decent price.

I've had the rugs for about a year now and they are definitely kid-resistant. They have survived coffee, sprite, wine, playdough, sick without any trace of a stain or smear.

Last edited by norsk; Mar 20th 2012 at 10:44 pm.
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Old Mar 21st 2012, 6:04 am
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Default Re: Rug Shops

Originally Posted by Ethos83
If there’s one thing I know about its rugs.

And I know this: unfortunately Dubai is one of the worst places to buy good quality Persian/Caucasian rugs. Most of what’s available is either exceedingly inferior or exceedingly overpriced and quite often both.

For the sake of simplicity I will divide Persian rugs into two categories:

1) Older, including tribal, Persian rugs. These are the rugs common in the west and have the distinctive styles we commonly associate with rugs. Think Heriz, Qashqai, Shiraz, Malayer, Mahal, Sultanabad rugs. The patterns tend to be a mixture of geometric with woven tree of life/flowers and the colours dominated by deep reds, purples, blues, greens etc. These are the rugs you see on the floor of English stately homes.

2) New Persian rugs. Very flowery, shiny with bright colours. Think Nain, Qum, Isfahan or even the newer Tabriz rugs. Many of these are now woven in Pakistan and India. They are very popular with Middle Easterners.

99% of the Persians available in Dubai are from category #2. The unfortunate reality is that the art of hand-woven rugs has disappeared from much of Iran so you simply don’t get new versions of the older regional tribal rugs that were so beloved in the West.

Rug dealers have turned the simple process of buying rugs into an art of smooth salesmanship, especially Middle Eastern dealers who prey on people’s sensibilities and the glamour associated with buying rugs. Naïve tourists go to Turkey or the Middle East thinking they can find a bargain. Experienced rug experts know never to buy rugs in Turkey or the Middle East and that the best bargains are quite often in the UK and the US for people have been importing rugs to the West for hundreds of years and local auction houses are filled with people selling off the old Heriz from grandmama’s house. The specialist rug auctions at Bonhams and Christies are especially good value and I've bought a few pieces from them over the years.

Ironically it’s now often easier to find good quality older Persians in the West than in the Middle East or even Iran. Damascus is probably the best place in the ME to buy rugs as it was the one place where Iranian tourists could easily visit and they’d bring their old rugs to sell for some tourist moolah, but Syria is pretty much off limits now.

What are good prices for rugs? A sneaky dealer will say that if you fall in love with a rug what does it matter what you pay for it if you’re happy with it? Fair enough, but a stingy bastard like me knows that since I’ve bought a large Malayer rug, circa 1920s, in excellent condition, at a specialist auction in London for £1,500, why would I want to pay triple or quadruple that for an inferior new Persian in Dubai?

Old Persians in good conditions start for at as low as a hundred or so for smaller pieces and go up to a few thousand for larger pieces. It’s not worth it for most people to spend more than £3-4,000 on a rug as you’re now getting into the specialist collector field and its only worth spending the money if you genuinely care about a rug's provenance and history rather than as a decorative element.

99.99% of rugs are NOT investments, regardless of what dealers try to tell you. A case point is this acquaintance who fell under the spell of a Dubai dealer, lavished out 25,000 AED for a shiny new Persian rug, moved back to London and decided the rug was too big for his cramped and overpriced London terraced house, and tried to sell it. The dealers in Dubai assured him the rug would never lose its value, would always be a good investment blah blah blah. The specialist rug shops and dealers in London wouldn’t touch his rug with a ten foot pole as it’s not a style the British public prefers and appreciates. He was redirected to several stores catering to a Middle Eastern clientele, and even there he was only offered a quarter of what he’d paid in Dubai.

It’s not my intention to be all doom and gloom. Good deals in Dubai are Pakistani rugs. Sturdy, decent looking, handwoven and pretty good quality, whose value is reduced by their sheer commonality. I’ve bought a 2x3m Pakistani rug for as low as 1,000 AED though it wasn’t as good as the Bokhara I picked up in Lahore for the same price (possibly as good a quality as a Bokhara can get with an incredibly high knot per cm count). The rug shops at the Blue Souk will offer the best deals for Pakistanis in Dubai but make it clear that you’re a resident and not a naïve tourist, never pay more than 60% the original asking price and be perfectly willing to laugh and walk out of the shop.

You may not like Ikea but Ikea does have half-decent Pakistani and Indian rugs for sale. They will be handwoven and 100% wool and capable enough of withstanding 100 x Mini-Millhouse.

If you prefer more modern/non Persian style rugs, Pottery Barn in MoE had a number of pleasant rugs and well priced. Almost bought one that was 100% wool from New Zealand and a modern twist on an arts and crafts pattern.

By the way, if you go to a specialist rug store or the Blue Souk (still well worth the visit even if you don’t buy anything) don’t listen too much to the blah blah about knots per inch or natural versus industrial dyes. They are important but only to an extent and not as much as the dealers claim. What you don’t want is cheap dye as it’ll bleed and stain if Mini Millhouse drops his apple juice on the rug. The dealer I liked the most has one of the largest shops in the wing of the souk closest to the lagoon and towards the west/sea side (the last shop in his wing). You'll notice the professional difference as soon as you walk into the shop and while he has a range of rugs his speciality is caucasian rugs. Always liked the dealer even though I never bought anything off him but he knows his stuff, unlike the rest of the dealers in the souk.
Dont overlook afghan made and sourced rugs, a lot of the turkomen weaving families moved to afghanisatn and subsequently to pakistani refugee camps. I have a man in sharjah who regularly attends the markets in khandar and mazar e shariff who has some cracking central asian tribal rugs, turkomen, baluch etc, both new and some very old, the old ones are not cheap but are stunning if often heavily worn (a lot have come from ousted warlords and a few have been faked by leaving them on the souq floor for a few months) but his newer ones I get for a fraction of dubai shop prices (think 10-20%) and are superb, collectors pieces they are not but for high quality rugs (highish knot counts, natural dye, good wool)that will long outlast my children im happy with them.
As for persians, meh, i can take em or leave em, I much prefer the central asian designs and utilitarian nature.

Norsk,
Khal/ khan Mohhamad is an afghan chap who started a rug "factory" Khal/kahn Mohammadi relatively recently, his designs are usually his own but based on older designs and are often less than five or ten years old but the higher quality ones are woven by some of the last remaining true craftswomen in the industry. They are relatively unique in a market full of psuedo rugs and fakes in that because of the weavers and evolving designs I think they have a fair chance of becoming a renowned rug in the future (think 50 yrs plus though).
rug design and manufacture has always changed through the centuries and i will side with the salemans maxim that if you like it it doesn't matter what it costs but i will add a caveat, with newer rugs you can always find the same thing elsewhere for a better price.

If you keep your eyes open carrefour every now and then has pretty good baluch rugs for a fair price, these are pieces for high traffic areas where wear will be an issue but for a decent price they are very hard wearing and of a reasonable quality.

whatever you do dont buy a rug in any of the big malls, not only will you get screwed on price and probably quality but you will miss out on the single best part,
hours of chai, chat and meandering discussions on rugs that may or may not result in a sale but always in a memorable day spent with some knowledgeable old bloke who will enrich your knowledge and day.

if a rug seller isnt willing to show you every rug in his shop and tell you the story of each one and its design without you buying then your in the wrong shop. Blokes like the above are ones who know if they share their passion then you will eventually buy a piece insha allah
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