The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Nov 21st 2007, 11:33 am
#16
**** it we'll do it live
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Good old Nakheel 
Their science, at least as presented in that report, is seriously flawed, but never mind.
When the Wikipedia entry for the Palm Jumeirah was modified to include the fact that the housing density on the island was greatly increased after the original round of sales (which was absolutely true) and that they'd had stagnation problems with the water before they added the breaks in the crescent (again true), someone was quick to edit the page to remove that stuff. A quick glance at the edit history revealed that the IP address for the person doing the censoring was... the Palm Jumeirah Sales Office
There's a wider problem here though, of the fact that the pollution and greenhouse gases created by the UAE are out of all proportion to the population size; in fact, I think I'm right in saying that the UAE is one of the most polluting nations in the world in that respect. And as well as our enthusiastic contribution to global warming, imagine all the crap that's coating our lungs when we breathe the air here. Lovely
Their science, at least as presented in that report, is seriously flawed, but never mind.When the Wikipedia entry for the Palm Jumeirah was modified to include the fact that the housing density on the island was greatly increased after the original round of sales (which was absolutely true) and that they'd had stagnation problems with the water before they added the breaks in the crescent (again true), someone was quick to edit the page to remove that stuff. A quick glance at the edit history revealed that the IP address for the person doing the censoring was... the Palm Jumeirah Sales Office
There's a wider problem here though, of the fact that the pollution and greenhouse gases created by the UAE are out of all proportion to the population size; in fact, I think I'm right in saying that the UAE is one of the most polluting nations in the world in that respect. And as well as our enthusiastic contribution to global warming, imagine all the crap that's coating our lungs when we breathe the air here. Lovely
The water takes 13 days to recirculate in the palm, i have a friend who is studying it, wont publish some of what i hear but trust me its hillarious!!!
As for air quality I'll tell you in two weeks, I have a air quality monitoring station in my garden at the moment (another friend doing a baseline study for an oil co.) so will tell you in a few weeks how bad it is. but again from what we know its definately NOT good
Nov 21st 2007, 11:48 am
#17
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,028
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Good old Nakheel Their science, at least as presented in that report, is seriously flawed, but never mind.
When the Wikipedia entry for the Palm Jumeirah was modified to include the fact that the housing density on the island was greatly increased after the original round of sales (which was absolutely true) and that they'd had stagnation problems with the water before they added the breaks in the crescent (again true), someone was quick to edit the page to remove that stuff. A quick glance at the edit history revealed that the IP address for the person doing the censoring was... the Palm Jumeirah Sales Office
(
Their science, at least as presented in that report, is seriously flawed, but never mind.When the Wikipedia entry for the Palm Jumeirah was modified to include the fact that the housing density on the island was greatly increased after the original round of sales (which was absolutely true) and that they'd had stagnation problems with the water before they added the breaks in the crescent (again true), someone was quick to edit the page to remove that stuff. A quick glance at the edit history revealed that the IP address for the person doing the censoring was... the Palm Jumeirah Sales Office
(
Nov 21st 2007, 1:13 pm
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Bang on re UAE's per capita carbon footprint. (http://www.ameinfo.com/53883.html, for example).
Judging by this board's preference to mull over the property apocalypse rather than the scorched earth apocalypse, I am probably wasting my breath here but...
http://www.eeg-uae.org/billion-tree-campaign.htm
Plant a tree. Go on...
Judging by this board's preference to mull over the property apocalypse rather than the scorched earth apocalypse, I am probably wasting my breath here but...
http://www.eeg-uae.org/billion-tree-campaign.htm
Plant a tree. Go on...
Nov 25th 2007, 10:10 am
#19
Gold-Helmeted Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Setubal-ish
Posts: 688
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
They overlooked the fact that water that did not move would stagnate. That is a pretty basic error. Now they cut extra gaps for circulation, they have more water movement. Water movement + sand equals erosion.
The palm will be washed away well before it is submerged by rising sea level. Unless they dredge continuously, which is kinda like building a new Palm every 10 years and just as costly.
The choice was stagnant water or washing away in 20 years. Simple choice really. You cannot hide the stench of stagnant water, but you can easily lie about the likely erosion until you've milked as much money from gullible investors as you can....
The palm will be washed away well before it is submerged by rising sea level. Unless they dredge continuously, which is kinda like building a new Palm every 10 years and just as costly.
The choice was stagnant water or washing away in 20 years. Simple choice really. You cannot hide the stench of stagnant water, but you can easily lie about the likely erosion until you've milked as much money from gullible investors as you can....
Nov 25th 2007, 11:05 am
#20
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: By the old canal...
Posts: 7,715
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
They overlooked the fact that water that did not move would stagnate. That is a pretty basic error. Now they cut extra gaps for circulation, they have more water movement. Water movement + sand equals erosion.
The palm will be washed away well before it is submerged by rising sea level. Unless they dredge continuously, which is kinda like building a new Palm every 10 years and just as costly.
The choice was stagnant water or washing away in 20 years. Simple choice really. You cannot hide the stench of stagnant water, but you can easily lie about the likely erosion until you've milked as much money from gullible investors as you can....
The palm will be washed away well before it is submerged by rising sea level. Unless they dredge continuously, which is kinda like building a new Palm every 10 years and just as costly.
The choice was stagnant water or washing away in 20 years. Simple choice really. You cannot hide the stench of stagnant water, but you can easily lie about the likely erosion until you've milked as much money from gullible investors as you can....
You are right that they should have used CFD modelling to predict the water flow and got it right first time - they have corrected this on the Jebel Ali site.
Personally, I don't find the buildings on the Jumeirah Palm at all appealing, but one has to doff one's cap to a pretty impressive feat of civil engineering.
Nov 25th 2007, 11:28 am
#21
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Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Setubal-ish
Posts: 688
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Erm. I think you'll find that the sand is covered by a water permeable geo-textile that prevents erosion....
You are right that they should have used CFD modelling to predict the water flow and got it right first time - they have corrected this on the Jebel Ali site.
Personally, I don't find the buildings on the Jumeirah Palm at all appealing, but one has to doff one's cap to a pretty impressive feat of civil engineering.
You are right that they should have used CFD modelling to predict the water flow and got it right first time - they have corrected this on the Jebel Ali site.
Personally, I don't find the buildings on the Jumeirah Palm at all appealing, but one has to doff one's cap to a pretty impressive feat of civil engineering.
The palm is basically banking on sandbags. Sandbags are temporary measures that are cheap and quick to put in place. The technology is not robust enough to last for decades. Textiles are just not strong enough to weather storms or the environment.
Only way to stop stuff washing away is rocks or concrete. The Burj Al Arab went through this and that was designed properly. They have specially designed rocks with holes in to dissipate wave force. No sandbags for them.
Nov 25th 2007, 1:20 pm
#22
Pog mo thoin
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 4,103
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Erm. I think you'll find that the sand is covered by a water permeable geo-textile that prevents erosion....
You are right that they should have used CFD modelling to predict the water flow and got it right first time - they have corrected this on the Jebel Ali site.
Personally, I don't find the buildings on the Jumeirah Palm at all appealing, but one has to doff one's cap to a pretty impressive feat of civil engineering.
You are right that they should have used CFD modelling to predict the water flow and got it right first time - they have corrected this on the Jebel Ali site.
Personally, I don't find the buildings on the Jumeirah Palm at all appealing, but one has to doff one's cap to a pretty impressive feat of civil engineering.
Nov 26th 2007, 2:50 am
#23
BE Enthusiast
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK... for now...
Posts: 355
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
We've bought on the Palm, and have NO regrets. We're certainly not "gullible investors" as captainflack put it. Prices are still rising, and I see them continuing to rise for years to come until the project reaches completion.
The shorelines looked finished at the front a month or 2 ago, but they are doing preventative maintenance as flooding was noted in the basement car parks of a couple of the buildings, so they are all ripped up again. Other than that, the shoreline area is pretty much done.
The fronds however are continuing to be built (no idea for completion), as are the Golden Mile (end 2008), Marina (2009), Tiara (end 2008) and Oceana (end 2008) residences. Hotels will be ongoing, prob for another 5 years I would imagine.
As for being doomed, I have no idea - I'm no scientist. But I haven't seen any waves that would cause any severe erosion - the water moves, but not much.
The shorelines looked finished at the front a month or 2 ago, but they are doing preventative maintenance as flooding was noted in the basement car parks of a couple of the buildings, so they are all ripped up again. Other than that, the shoreline area is pretty much done.
The fronds however are continuing to be built (no idea for completion), as are the Golden Mile (end 2008), Marina (2009), Tiara (end 2008) and Oceana (end 2008) residences. Hotels will be ongoing, prob for another 5 years I would imagine.
As for being doomed, I have no idea - I'm no scientist. But I haven't seen any waves that would cause any severe erosion - the water moves, but not much.
Nov 26th 2007, 4:06 am
#24
**** it we'll do it live
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
The shorelines looked finished at the front a month or 2 ago, but they are doing preventative maintenance as flooding was noted in the basement car parks of a couple of the buildings, so they are all ripped up again. Other than that, the shoreline area is pretty much done.
.
.
Nov 26th 2007, 5:01 am
#25
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Joined: May 2007
Location: UK... for now...
Posts: 355
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
a fault was found on 1 or 2 of the 20 buildings. So they are applying the fix to all 20.
I'm more than happy to see this done rather than fix the buildings that were affected and leave the rest hoping it won't happen to those.
I'm more than happy to see this done rather than fix the buildings that were affected and leave the rest hoping it won't happen to those.
Nov 26th 2007, 7:10 am
#26
Soupy twist
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,271
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Didn't Nakheel officially deny there were any flooding problems at all? Or am I thinking about something else?
Are we actually talking seawater getting in, or flooding from burst freshwater pipes etc?
Are we actually talking seawater getting in, or flooding from burst freshwater pipes etc?
Nov 26th 2007, 7:20 am
#27
Banned
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Kuwait - Sringboard to Djibouti
Posts: 305
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
We've bought on the Palm, and have NO regrets. We're certainly not "gullible investors" as captainflack put it. Prices are still rising, and I see them continuing to rise for years to come until the project reaches completion.
The shorelines looked finished at the front a month or 2 ago, but they are doing preventative maintenance as flooding was noted in the basement car parks of a couple of the buildings, so they are all ripped up again. Other than that, the shoreline area is pretty much done.
The fronds however are continuing to be built (no idea for completion), as are the Golden Mile (end 2008), Marina (2009), Tiara (end 2008) and Oceana (end 2008) residences. Hotels will be ongoing, prob for another 5 years I would imagine.
As for being doomed, I have no idea - I'm no scientist. But I haven't seen any waves that would cause any severe erosion - the water moves, but not much.
The shorelines looked finished at the front a month or 2 ago, but they are doing preventative maintenance as flooding was noted in the basement car parks of a couple of the buildings, so they are all ripped up again. Other than that, the shoreline area is pretty much done.
The fronds however are continuing to be built (no idea for completion), as are the Golden Mile (end 2008), Marina (2009), Tiara (end 2008) and Oceana (end 2008) residences. Hotels will be ongoing, prob for another 5 years I would imagine.
As for being doomed, I have no idea - I'm no scientist. But I haven't seen any waves that would cause any severe erosion - the water moves, but not much.
Water in the basement is really not a good sign. Saline water in the basement with unprotected steel rebar is life threatning.
Nov 26th 2007, 7:38 am
#28
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Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Setubal-ish
Posts: 688
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
If the underground carparks are flooding, you gotta wonder about the foundations.... are those buildings steel-piled? That could be nasty.
Quite a few rental bargains on the Palm. 110k for 1-beds if you look around. I called a few places out of interest and I get the impression I could talk them down to maybe 95k if I pushed my luck. 2-beds at 140k if you find the right place, again could probably talk those down as so much available. Similar prices to the Greens actually, which is surprising considering the Palm is supposed to be a premium development.
I'd certainly be tempted at those bargain basement (hopefully saltwater free) prices for a year as work in DIC so palm probably even more handy for me than Greens. I'd have to check my car insurance covers fire, theft and flooding
Quite a few rental bargains on the Palm. 110k for 1-beds if you look around. I called a few places out of interest and I get the impression I could talk them down to maybe 95k if I pushed my luck. 2-beds at 140k if you find the right place, again could probably talk those down as so much available. Similar prices to the Greens actually, which is surprising considering the Palm is supposed to be a premium development.
I'd certainly be tempted at those bargain basement (hopefully saltwater free) prices for a year as work in DIC so palm probably even more handy for me than Greens. I'd have to check my car insurance covers fire, theft and flooding
Nov 26th 2007, 8:47 am
#29
Soupy twist
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,271
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
If everyone's salary doubles or triples overnight then yes, there's room for crazy rental price increases, but I can't quite see that happening somehow
Nov 26th 2007, 10:12 am
#30
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,028
Re: The Palms doomed....or not maybe
Do yourself a big favour and sell while the property market is as buoyant as you suggest. I am in the insurance claims investigation business and have been there many times on flood related problems. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Didn't anybody listen to the global warming guys who predicted that sea levels would rise?