Originally Posted by taistealai

We aren't Arabs, the blood in my veins is as Irish as one reasonably can be, and my wife is from the east of France, near Nancy. We are Muslim.


Where we live anywhere matters for the same reason that it matters to anyone else. I'm not opposed to living in Saudi, but I didn't know that we would be allowed to live in a regular house on a regular street in a regular neighbourhood, I thought we would be obliged to live in a compound with other Europeans and Americans, segregated from the native population and non-western foreigners.

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope

A thaistealaí, a chara,

Fáilte roimh an mbored!

With that out of the way (and as this is an English language forum) let me proceed with the customary abuse! I have no comprehension why you would embrace another religion in which you haven't been raised (unless you have been raised a Muslim and then I can at least fathom why you are a follower). But as you are a Muslim I guess, I can kind of understand why you want to live in a Muslim majority country. But be careful as they are a very mixed bag and I have heard many Muslims, who have moved to Europe from elsewhere, say that their new home is a better place to be a Muslim than where they came from.

First, there is still no stable, democratic and free (in the generally accepted sense of the word: press, belief, voting etc) Muslim majority country. Malaysia, Indonesia and, perhaps now, Tunisia come closest but they all have their flaws. Turkey has slipped right off the list. Those little personal freedoms can be a large price to pay for feeling less like an outsider. Because you will still be an outsider, albeit of a different kind.

Think very carefully about what you are giving up as well as gaining. For a start, in Muslim countries, religion and state tend to be very intertwined so your mosque and imams give you not just a religious orientation but also whatever happens to be the government line. Depending on what sect or strand of Islam you follow, that could have a very significant impact on your freedom to practice. This goes far deeper and broader than Sunni/Shi'a of course. Sufi practices, for example, are de rigeur in some places and apostasy in others.

Furthermore, going to a majority Muslim country may also set back your chances of going on Hajj significantly as most have very long waiting lists and increasingly restrictive permissions. Also, the Saudi authorities are pretty nakedly racist in their distribution of Hajj permits so you would almost certainly get on a list sooner in Youghal than in Yogyakarta. Latterly I believe Hajj permits for Muslim residents in the Gulf, who are not GCC nationals, have been very difficult to come by. This is unlikely to improve. Even living in the kingdom (and really, you need to consider this option very carefully) might not improve your chances that much.

Quite a lot to think about - giving up living in Europe means giving up a lot more than you might think at first...

Originally Posted by Scamp

I see.

I wouldn't write off the UAE or Qatar as culture-less either though.

Originally Posted by Scamp

Malaysia is interesting, it's a wicked place but I found KL to be a very similar sort of place to Dubai. Total focus on malls with a centre-piece that's just a smaller version of Downtown, albeit with very pretty towers.

I wouldn't discount the GCC if it's culture you're after though.

I also don't get it - you're a non-Arab but going on Hajj to Saudi? So you must be Muslim? In which case, what does it matter where you live in Saudi?

Originally Posted by taistealai

We plan on going for Hajj in the coming year, but aren't non-Arab foreigners required to live in a compound if you're a full time expat?

Originally Posted by taistealai

Oh certainly not! I hope I didn't intend to say that at all, it's just that we don't necessarily want to live an expat lifestyle. Saudi Arabia is a different story now that I've been corrected on the question of compounds, because as far as I know the country is no less 'local' in composition than an average European country, but I've been to Dubai, and I think it would be quite hard to live amongst the native culture when 90% of the population are also expatriates.

Originally Posted by taistealai

An English speaking school wouldn't be necessary, Francophone schools are fine as well, and we would love for our children to be fluent in Arabic, because although my wife and I are both proficient in Fusha and Classical Arabic, we can't really understand normal conversational Arabic or much of anything aside from a newscast in very formal language or Qura'nic recitation. It's also very important to us that they aren't at an international school with few local schoolmates.

In all likelihood we'll send our children to a local independent school where they can learn the local curriculum and get some sort of international qualification like an IB diploma, so that they can go to uni in France or Britain or Ireland or one of the top universities in the region like AUC or NYU Abu Dhabi etc. but that's very far off. AFAIK, Istanbul has some of the best schools in the region, with a curriculum that mixes modern European style education with traditional Islamic studies, so if we wind up there, it shouldn't be too hard for us to find something suitable.


Employment is of course an important consideration. My wife is a teacher who is qualified to teach French as a foreign language, so we are thinking that if needed she can work at a language school or freelance, but ideally we'll open our business. I studied literature and history, and my education doesn't get used in my current profession, so we had this romantic notion that we would open some sort of book store that can also serve as a space for local artists to show off their work, classes and lectures etc. It isn't something we could ever do in Western Europe, where starting up such an establishment would cost millions, and where most of the population is....post-literary, to put it euphemistically.

Originally Posted by taistealai

I don't see a reason for me to try and justify our spiritual paths, especially when you've made yourself so very clear. A very big part of our wanting to move to the Muslim world is to avoid having to justify ourselves to a majority that feels as you do, to not feel as though we need to apologise for living as we live or worse yet for the actions of people who have nothing to do with us, to not have to worry about our children hearing a politician like Marine Le Pen or Theresa May or a so called intellectual like Alain Finkielraut or Richard Dawkins on television and wondering why the society that they live in not only legally allows such hatred to be spewed, but (in some sectors) applauds it.

Originally Posted by taistealai

, to not have to worry about our children hearing a politician like Marine Le Pen or Theresa May or a so called intellectual like Alain Finkielraut or Richard Dawkins on television and wondering why the society that they live in not only legally allows such hatred to be spewed, but (in some sectors) applauds it.

Originally Posted by taistealai

Oh certainly not! I hope I didn't intend to say that at all, it's just that we don't necessarily want to live an expat lifestyle. Saudi Arabia is a different story now that I've been corrected on the question of compounds, because as far as I know the country is no less 'local' in composition than an average European country, but I've been to Dubai, and I think it would be quite hard to live amongst the native culture when 90% of the population are also expatriates.

Originally Posted by nonthaburi

Bit naive that.

Originally Posted by taistealai

We are Muslim, neither my wife or myself were born or raised Muslim, both of our families were and still are Roman Catholics, we became Muslim separately as young adults and came to know each other when both of us came to Paris to study and joined the Paris I branch of l'EMF.


I don't see a reason for me to try and justify our spiritual paths, especially when you've made yourself so very clear. A very big part of our wanting to move to the Muslim world is to avoid having to justify ourselves to a majority that feels as you do, to not feel as though we need to apologise for living as we live or worse yet for the actions of people who have nothing to do with us, to not have to worry about our children hearing a politician like Marine Le Pen or Theresa May or a so called intellectual like Alain Finkielraut or Richard Dawkins on television and wondering why the society that they live in not only legally allows such hatred to be spewed, but (in some sectors) applauds it.


I'll always love France and I'll always be a proud Irishman, but we are looking to live in one of these countries precisely because it is different. To put it another way, 15 years ago, Turkey wouldn't have been a country under consideration.

Originally Posted by taistealai

... to not have to worry about our children hearing a ... so called intellectual like ... Richard Dawkins ...

Originally Posted by DandNHill

I grew up in England until I was 9 years old. Then moved to Algeria for a while as my father had work there.
My mother especially struggled with the total contrast in lifestyle.
Regardless of your faith something tells me you're both being very naive as to how much of a culture shock you will get by moving to a Muslim country.
Muslim countries are not just about their faith but about a way of life which is totally alien to us Europeans.

I truly wish you well but I ready don't think you know what you're letting yourselves in for!!

Originally Posted by Scamp

I see.

I wouldn't write off the UAE or Qatar as culture-less either though.

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope

This. Exactly this.