To jump or not..!
Feb 28th 2018, 6:52 pm
#16
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 67
Re: To jump or not..!
I also assumed you (would) send the kids to public schools in Canada and that (per your suggestion, if i understood well) the potential rent from the house in Canada is not included in the calculations.
For whatever is worth, for me personally, even if one doesnt subscribe to the logic of deducting housing and schooling, the 5k difference (again bonus at zero) isnt worth it to move to Dubai (the 5k is just the nominal difference between the two salaries). In the end Dubai, being Dubai, will probably shrink that 5k anyway.
Last edited by omega7; Feb 28th 2018 at 6:59 pm.
Feb 28th 2018, 7:09 pm
#17
Forum Regular
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 105
Re: To jump or not..!
ah, my bad, that makes sense.
The main reason for moving to the suburbs is to get into a better public school so you're right.
The main reason for moving to the suburbs is to get into a better public school so you're right.
I used 26k (with your numbers of 18+8k the leftover could be in fact less, at 24k) because this seems to be the take home pay (after housing and schooling). It may be the wrong thing to do for some, but if a job makes one pay a much more expensive house or school, then this money has to be taken out from the offer (for comparison reasons).
I also assumed you (would) send the kids to public schools in Canada and that (per your suggestion, if i understood well) the potential rent from the house in Canada is not included in the calculations.
For whatever is worth, for me personally, even if one doesnt subscribe to the logic of deducting housing and schooling, the 5k difference (again bonus at zero) isnt worth it to move to Dubai (the 5k is just the nominal difference between the two salaries). In the end Dubai, being Dubai, will probably shrink that 5k anyway.
I also assumed you (would) send the kids to public schools in Canada and that (per your suggestion, if i understood well) the potential rent from the house in Canada is not included in the calculations.
For whatever is worth, for me personally, even if one doesnt subscribe to the logic of deducting housing and schooling, the 5k difference (again bonus at zero) isnt worth it to move to Dubai (the 5k is just the nominal difference between the two salaries). In the end Dubai, being Dubai, will probably shrink that 5k anyway.
Feb 28th 2018, 8:58 pm
#18
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,900
Re: To jump or not..!
Given the terms you outlined, I would probably do it; it is a sizable jump in salary from what you are making now, even when VAT ramifications are factored in.
Keep in mind, what others like Maxima have said, that the Gulf is a very status-obsessed and materialistic place, much more than Canada; we do get people on here from time to time who think going there will be a kind of spiritual cleanse and it's really the opposite (and Westerners often get caught up in it too) . . . and that mindset is as naive as the Brit bogans who come on here thinking Dubai is a party-central Mediterranean city.
As someone of Pakistani origin, be prepared for you and your children to be heavily discriminated against and stereotyped by both locals and Arab Expatriates, to the extent you've never seen in Canada. Your Canadian passport will insulate you from the worst of it though. See point above - some people erroneously think being a Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan from the West will make them some kind of "band of brothers" with the locals because they're Muslim but the locals don't care about that, they care about tribal origin, and being from South Asia puts them at the bottom of the system (insulated somewhat by a Western passport).
Your contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Assume your six-month-in salary renegotiation will never happen. If it does - bonus.
Most importantly have an exit plan. Professional situations in the Gulf can go really sour, really fast and a lot of expats get caught out. Go into this with a firm deadline of how long you want to stay and what your financial goals are. You can re-evaluate later on but don't approach this as an open-ended long-term situation the way you would approach a new Canadian position. Turnover in the Gulf is massive and astonishing. Go in with a 2-year or 3-year plan (no more than that - see the last sentence) and continuously update and re-evaluate.
On that last point - listen carefully to what people say on this board; these members are part of the 2 or 3% (or whatever similar figure it is) of Westerners that have lasted more than a few years.
Good luck.
Keep in mind, what others like Maxima have said, that the Gulf is a very status-obsessed and materialistic place, much more than Canada; we do get people on here from time to time who think going there will be a kind of spiritual cleanse and it's really the opposite (and Westerners often get caught up in it too) . . . and that mindset is as naive as the Brit bogans who come on here thinking Dubai is a party-central Mediterranean city.
As someone of Pakistani origin, be prepared for you and your children to be heavily discriminated against and stereotyped by both locals and Arab Expatriates, to the extent you've never seen in Canada. Your Canadian passport will insulate you from the worst of it though. See point above - some people erroneously think being a Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan from the West will make them some kind of "band of brothers" with the locals because they're Muslim but the locals don't care about that, they care about tribal origin, and being from South Asia puts them at the bottom of the system (insulated somewhat by a Western passport).
Your contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Assume your six-month-in salary renegotiation will never happen. If it does - bonus.
Most importantly have an exit plan. Professional situations in the Gulf can go really sour, really fast and a lot of expats get caught out. Go into this with a firm deadline of how long you want to stay and what your financial goals are. You can re-evaluate later on but don't approach this as an open-ended long-term situation the way you would approach a new Canadian position. Turnover in the Gulf is massive and astonishing. Go in with a 2-year or 3-year plan (no more than that - see the last sentence) and continuously update and re-evaluate.
On that last point - listen carefully to what people say on this board; these members are part of the 2 or 3% (or whatever similar figure it is) of Westerners that have lasted more than a few years.
Good luck.
Last edited by carcajou; Feb 28th 2018 at 9:04 pm.
Mar 1st 2018, 8:36 am
#19
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: To jump or not..!
Given the terms you outlined, I would probably do it; it is a sizable jump in salary from what you are making now, even when VAT ramifications are factored in.
Keep in mind, what others like Maxima have said, that the Gulf is a very status-obsessed and materialistic place, much more than Canada; we do get people on here from time to time who think going there will be a kind of spiritual cleanse and it's really the opposite (and Westerners often get caught up in it too) . . . and that mindset is as naive as the Brit bogans who come on here thinking Dubai is a party-central Mediterranean city.
As someone of Pakistani origin, be prepared for you and your children to be heavily discriminated against and stereotyped by both locals and Arab Expatriates, to the extent you've never seen in Canada. Your Canadian passport will insulate you from the worst of it though. See point above - some people erroneously think being a Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan from the West will make them some kind of "band of brothers" with the locals because they're Muslim but the locals don't care about that, they care about tribal origin, and being from South Asia puts them at the bottom of the system (insulated somewhat by a Western passport).
Your contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Assume your six-month-in salary renegotiation will never happen. If it does - bonus.
Most importantly have an exit plan. Professional situations in the Gulf can go really sour, really fast and a lot of expats get caught out. Go into this with a firm deadline of how long you want to stay and what your financial goals are. You can re-evaluate later on but don't approach this as an open-ended long-term situation the way you would approach a new Canadian position. Turnover in the Gulf is massive and astonishing. Go in with a 2-year or 3-year plan (no more than that - see the last sentence) and continuously update and re-evaluate.
On that last point - listen carefully to what people say on this board; these members are part of the 2 or 3% (or whatever similar figure it is) of Westerners that have lasted more than a few years.
Good luck.
Keep in mind, what others like Maxima have said, that the Gulf is a very status-obsessed and materialistic place, much more than Canada; we do get people on here from time to time who think going there will be a kind of spiritual cleanse and it's really the opposite (and Westerners often get caught up in it too) . . . and that mindset is as naive as the Brit bogans who come on here thinking Dubai is a party-central Mediterranean city.
As someone of Pakistani origin, be prepared for you and your children to be heavily discriminated against and stereotyped by both locals and Arab Expatriates, to the extent you've never seen in Canada. Your Canadian passport will insulate you from the worst of it though. See point above - some people erroneously think being a Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan from the West will make them some kind of "band of brothers" with the locals because they're Muslim but the locals don't care about that, they care about tribal origin, and being from South Asia puts them at the bottom of the system (insulated somewhat by a Western passport).
Your contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Assume your six-month-in salary renegotiation will never happen. If it does - bonus.
Most importantly have an exit plan. Professional situations in the Gulf can go really sour, really fast and a lot of expats get caught out. Go into this with a firm deadline of how long you want to stay and what your financial goals are. You can re-evaluate later on but don't approach this as an open-ended long-term situation the way you would approach a new Canadian position. Turnover in the Gulf is massive and astonishing. Go in with a 2-year or 3-year plan (no more than that - see the last sentence) and continuously update and re-evaluate.
On that last point - listen carefully to what people say on this board; these members are part of the 2 or 3% (or whatever similar figure it is) of Westerners that have lasted more than a few years.
Good luck.
Mar 1st 2018, 9:11 am
#20
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,520
Re: To jump or not..!
Something just happened this morning in my office (Qatar, FYI, but I worked in AD and Dubai before moving here and it's similar enough from an economic perspective).
Two experienced engineers were made redundant. A project they were to work on has been postponed till September with a risk of being cancelled outright. The firm made the decision not to carry them because there's nothing else for them to work on.
While redundancies do happen anywhere, whether the UAE or Canada, consider the differences.
If you lose your job in Canada, you likely have more generous redundancy packages and benefits. You're in a strong employment market (Toronto?). Your kids are at free schools. Your wife probably works so there's still money coming in. There's health insurance provided by your government.
You're made redundant in the UAE, you lose your residency visa. You need to leave the country if you don't find another job. Your kids are in very expensive schools. You have a rental cheque due. You're in a weak labour market so finding a new job quickly is certainly not guaranteed. Do you try to stick it out to the end of the school year and pay the rest of the fees and rent with no income coming in? Oh, there's the issue of health insurance. And the difficulty of looking for a job in Canada whilst still in the UAE. So you decide to move back to Canada ASAP. Oh, your house is let out and it takes time to churn out the tenants.
Redundancy is shit anywhere in the world, but redundancy as an expat is especially shitty when it means a sudden end to your life in a country and uprooting a family and the high expenses and inconveniences that often comes with it. That's why when you look at your package and expenses carefully you do really need to have a significant financial advantage built into it to compensate for the risks and inconveniences of redundancies and being an expat. A total take home difference of only 5k wouldn't be enough for me to give up a stable job in a stable country like Canada for the joys (and risks) of expatdom, especially as that 5k will mostly be eaten up by unexpected cost of living factors you haven't considered.
Ideally you should only accept a package that allows you to rapidly build up enough savings to support your family for at least six months, or a full year post redundancy. This package offer won't let you do that.
Two experienced engineers were made redundant. A project they were to work on has been postponed till September with a risk of being cancelled outright. The firm made the decision not to carry them because there's nothing else for them to work on.
While redundancies do happen anywhere, whether the UAE or Canada, consider the differences.
If you lose your job in Canada, you likely have more generous redundancy packages and benefits. You're in a strong employment market (Toronto?). Your kids are at free schools. Your wife probably works so there's still money coming in. There's health insurance provided by your government.
You're made redundant in the UAE, you lose your residency visa. You need to leave the country if you don't find another job. Your kids are in very expensive schools. You have a rental cheque due. You're in a weak labour market so finding a new job quickly is certainly not guaranteed. Do you try to stick it out to the end of the school year and pay the rest of the fees and rent with no income coming in? Oh, there's the issue of health insurance. And the difficulty of looking for a job in Canada whilst still in the UAE. So you decide to move back to Canada ASAP. Oh, your house is let out and it takes time to churn out the tenants.
Redundancy is shit anywhere in the world, but redundancy as an expat is especially shitty when it means a sudden end to your life in a country and uprooting a family and the high expenses and inconveniences that often comes with it. That's why when you look at your package and expenses carefully you do really need to have a significant financial advantage built into it to compensate for the risks and inconveniences of redundancies and being an expat. A total take home difference of only 5k wouldn't be enough for me to give up a stable job in a stable country like Canada for the joys (and risks) of expatdom, especially as that 5k will mostly be eaten up by unexpected cost of living factors you haven't considered.
Ideally you should only accept a package that allows you to rapidly build up enough savings to support your family for at least six months, or a full year post redundancy. This package offer won't let you do that.
Last edited by DXBtoDOH; Mar 1st 2018 at 9:14 am.
Mar 1st 2018, 9:51 am
#21
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: To jump or not..!
For family reasons, if you want to do it then you should go ahead.
However the finances don't stack up and in reality I believe, with the higher expenses and start up costs, that you will come out behind your Canadian salary. The six month promotion is extremely unlikely and getting the bonus will be hard fought.
While that may sound negative, it's a more realistic assessment of the financial situation. The family situation is your own call.
However the finances don't stack up and in reality I believe, with the higher expenses and start up costs, that you will come out behind your Canadian salary. The six month promotion is extremely unlikely and getting the bonus will be hard fought.
While that may sound negative, it's a more realistic assessment of the financial situation. The family situation is your own call.
Mar 1st 2018, 11:09 am
#22
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 156
Re: To jump or not..!
As much as I have enjoyed the whole ME experience and most recently in Dubai, the current economic environment is dire and not sure what the future has in store.
I get several recruiters contacting me for a new role but not sure how concrete it is. I am single therefore i'm not as concerned. If I had a family, I don't think i would be brave enough to move at the moment if I had a successful career in the West. However, I am a risk adverse person.
Hope I haven't put you off totally but thought I would share my thoughts having lived in the region for 7 years.
Good luck with your decision and if you decide to move, hope it all works out for you.
I get several recruiters contacting me for a new role but not sure how concrete it is. I am single therefore i'm not as concerned. If I had a family, I don't think i would be brave enough to move at the moment if I had a successful career in the West. However, I am a risk adverse person.
Hope I haven't put you off totally but thought I would share my thoughts having lived in the region for 7 years.
Good luck with your decision and if you decide to move, hope it all works out for you.
Mar 1st 2018, 1:15 pm
#23
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 37
Re: To jump or not..!
Definitely worth the gamble- do it!
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
Mar 1st 2018, 1:51 pm
#24
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: To jump or not..!
Definitely worth the gamble- do it!
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
Mar 1st 2018, 2:02 pm
#25
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: To jump or not..!
Definitely worth the gamble- do it!
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
Mar 1st 2018, 2:40 pm
#26
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 67
Re: To jump or not..!
For me it has always been the like-to-like salary figure that i have used in my comparisons, but I'm interested to see how others feel.
Last edited by omega7; Mar 1st 2018 at 3:38 pm.
Mar 1st 2018, 3:22 pm
#27
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: To jump or not..!
On this point: what is the norm when comparing offers? To just use the nominal figures (in that case it's $5k which could be seen as a sizable jump in salary), or the like-to-like figures i.e. after you account for the new costs in Dubai i.e. housing and schooling? In the latter case, he is actually taking a of 15% cut.
For me it has always been the like-to-like salary figure that i have used in my comparisons, but I'm interested to see how others feel.
For me it has always been the like-to-like salary figure that i have used in my comparisons, but I'm interested to see how others feel.
So it's simple. If you're in UK (or Canada or wherever) you know how much you can save each month. Take your new (prospective) salary, deduct from it all the costs which you'll incur in your new location, deduct something further (10%?) for unknowns/risks, deduct further for loss of pension and similar benefits (the deduction being how much it'll cost you to replace them, not the cost of them at home), then you're looking at like for like.
You then have to weigh up if the increase in savings is worth it.
Then you're in the position to do the Cost / Benefit Analysis. Risk (regarding things going very pear-shaped very quickly, as someone above addressed); better(?) lifestyle; better(?) education; distance from/to relatives; worse (probably) career prospects; etc etc.
Do the sums first, then assess the pros and cons to see if it's worthwhile -- and the pros and cons always vary (in terms of impact and significance) from individual to individual and family to family.
Mar 2nd 2018, 4:23 am
#28
Onwards and Upwards!
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 884
Re: To jump or not..!
Also factor in...
Non-earning (unemployed) time when you mobilise/ demobilise
Mobilisation/ Demobilisation costs (shipping, furnishings, incidentals)
Flight costs to visit friends/ family back home
Decent family health insurance
Unemployment insurance
Travel insurance
Exchange rate fluctuation, and money transfer costs
These costs can be significant if you are only here for a few years, like most expats.
Non-earning (unemployed) time when you mobilise/ demobilise
Mobilisation/ Demobilisation costs (shipping, furnishings, incidentals)
Flight costs to visit friends/ family back home
Decent family health insurance
Unemployment insurance
Travel insurance
Exchange rate fluctuation, and money transfer costs
These costs can be significant if you are only here for a few years, like most expats.
Mar 2nd 2018, 8:43 am
#29
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: To jump or not..!
Also factor in...
Non-earning (unemployed) time when you mobilise/ demobilise
Mobilisation/ Demobilisation costs (shipping, furnishings, incidentals)
Flight costs to visit friends/ family back home
Decent family health insurance
Unemployment insurance
Travel insurance
Exchange rate fluctuation, and money transfer costs
These costs can be significant if you are only here for a few years, like most expats.
Non-earning (unemployed) time when you mobilise/ demobilise
Mobilisation/ Demobilisation costs (shipping, furnishings, incidentals)
Flight costs to visit friends/ family back home
Decent family health insurance
Unemployment insurance
Travel insurance
Exchange rate fluctuation, and money transfer costs
These costs can be significant if you are only here for a few years, like most expats.
Mar 4th 2018, 3:59 am
#30
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 156
Re: To jump or not..!
Definitely worth the gamble- do it!
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
But remember that Dubai is full of British chavs from Essex, in their 20's and usually employed as recruitment agents or brokers. They went to "party" universities and scraped a pass. Couldn't find jobs in London so put on their best winklepickers with contrasting pink socks, tailored themselves a few shirts with cutaway collars, a few electric blue suits with added matching pink pocket squares, and headed to Dubai where they instantly became gods by virtue of their lack of skin pigment and inflated sense of self worth.
Other than that, yeah Dubai is awesome. Woo.
To the OP, I may have sounded negative but I am just a cautious person. I have not regretted my ME experience and glad I took the initial jump in 2011. Good luck with your decision.