To jump or not..!

Old Feb 26th 2018, 8:59 pm
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Default To jump or not..!

Hi All,

I have asked this question before but as I finally near D-Day and since we're into 2018 and VAT is in full swing, looking for your feedback again.

We are a Pakistani Canadian family of 4 with my wife staying home after our youngest was born (She worked as an HR Analyst). The kids are 4 Yr and 19 months with my wife planning to return to work as the younger one turns 3. We currently live in Toronto where I work as an independent consultant with a usual take home of around $11K CAD per month, post taxes and deductions. We live a comfortable life and have no complaints except that we sometimes feel lonely as neither of us has any family here. The only other caveat is that I move contract to contract and can at times be out of a job for 2-3 months. In my past 8 years of doing this, I am yet to be without a job between contracts but you never know!

I have been offered 50K AED per month with a multinational consulting firm in Dubai (not big 4 but equally big). The role is to help launch a new consulting product which I have experience with and will be new to the ME market. I have worked for the same organization here and am familiar with their structure and how things work. Knowing what I know about the organization and management, does help alleviate the other usual ME work concerns.

I have tried to push on the amount and have been promised a review 6 months in, after we sign some clients ,as the Business Case has fixed salary numbers for now. I was engaged early as the product plans were being drawn up and have been kept informed by management through the process.

The amount offered includes everything in with annual return tickets, insurance for family and initial relocation support covered. I have tried to push on accommodation and schooling but have been told it is company policy to only offer all in (I confirmed on the side and this is accurate) I am also eligible for 20% bonus (on total annual comp - at 100% equals AED 120K).

The reason for moving is to get a bit closer to family, weather (might just be February blues) and to explore the world a bit.

Based on my research, the olden days of "Golden" packages are done and 50K is a decent number (so I think). To be honest, emotionally and wanting to move to the region for a while, I am sold on the offer but really want to make sure I am not signing up for a bad deal.

I have been sitting on this for a while but now need a make a decision in the next 1-2 weeks. Would welcome any feedback you can share, thank you in advance!


Last edited by shake2000; Feb 26th 2018 at 9:01 pm.
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Old Feb 27th 2018, 3:31 am
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

What's stopping you?

If you want to work in the Middle East, have nicer weather, be closer to family and think the job is exciting you'll make the package work.

I say take it.
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Old Feb 27th 2018, 3:35 am
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

"The reason for moving is to get a bit closer to family, weather (might just be February blues) and to explore the world a bit."


For Canadians of Desi origin, the first factor is always much more important than weather... no matter how much they may pretend they hate snow....


Where are your family members as in parents, siblings etc?
Did you migrate to Canada long back or recently?


These will be crucial to your decision.


As a rule of thumb, any Desi living "a comfortable life" as you put it, in North America has little reason to move to the Gulf....


However, if parents are involved then its a different matter, and even more so if they are not that mobile/unable to fly.


Well-heeled South Asians can and do fly to the subcontinent up to 6 times a year to see aged parents. Also, there are those who bring the parents over for visits, as the latter find the 2 hours flight much better than the 2+stopover+14 hour flights to North America


Out of 50k, your biggest expenses will be rent (10-13k a month if you can live in an apartment), and schooling (up to 4k for the first), so that does give you quite a bit to play around, just keep in mind that most items are pricier than in Canada
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Old Feb 27th 2018, 1:49 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Thank you Scamp. I ask myself the same question every day but want to make sure the numbers work as well. I have wanted to do this for a while but was waiting to get some experience under my belt so it is easier to transition back, if required.

Maxima - Completely agree with the family reason but that won't pay the bills. We're not the typical desi household, I have met up with some U.K desis and they are a breed of their own and felt they are still stuck in the 80s!! We moved to Canada in the 80's but then went back as my dad was working for a multinational and was transferred. I did my schooling in Pakistan (O and A Levels) and have been back in Canada for over 20 years now which included university. We do the annual Christmas trip back home and to be honest, 2 weeks of extended family starts to test my patience. I do not think with a full time career I can manage 6 trips back home and even if I could, so many other places I would rather visit
The primary reason is to be close to home and knowing you can go back to visit in a couple of hours, if required (My wife's parents are getting old and savings are right up there as a reason as well). I am also a firm believer that living in that part of the world gives you a very different perspective in life when growing up which I want my kids to experience. Toronto is an amazing city but now that we need to move to the suburbs (no more walking to work) due to schooling, I feel it is a good time for a fresh start. I will be renting our place here which should easily cover the payments.
I have been budgeting accommodation at 16-17K (Villa in Silicone Oasis and utilities) and schooling at 8K as I will want the younger one to go to Daycare soon since it helps build social skills.

All signs point to jump but I keep thinking, what am I missing?

Thank you again for your feedback.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 4:36 am
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Originally Posted by shake2000
I am also a firm believer that living in that part of the world gives you a very different perspective in life when growing up which I want my kids to experience. .
I am not sure what you mean by this but if any of my western based desi friends' expectations are anything to go by, they seem to think Dubai and Gulf is this spiritual place where kids to learn about "values" and people are not as consumerist than the "West"


They then get the shock of their lives at how much more materialistic and status/class obsessed people are, and how people can be condescending/rude on the basis of what someone works as.


Good thing is ethnic origin is much less of a factor for receiving bad behavior in Dubai compared to other GCC Countries. In fact, its hardly a factor at all. But if you are in Kuwait or Doha, its 180 degrees opposite.


And another good thing is Dubai is slightly less materialistic on the whole than what it was few years ago.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 8:01 am
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Interesting dilemma
Ive been here almost 7 years now and have parents in Pakistan and yes it is definitely much easier to fly to them or have them fly here so thats a plus point.
Salary sounds good and you can have a comfortable lifestyle and hopefully save as well, another plus point.
Maxima is right about the materialistic approach here, it might be muted somewhat here than other places but you can still see it
the only argument against this endeavor will be job security
you can have a 1000 page iron clad legally binding contract but it wont mean anything here, if one day they say you go then you are left up *** creek without a paddle
and THAT I think is the only reason (especially in this day and age of cutbacks and austerity) why you should not move, atleast for this year. Let the market in dubai settle down first, its only been 2 months since the vat started and business is pretty bad right now. I expect a lot of people / companies leaving post march (tax submission first date) and then post June (tax submission second date) again. Sales are down 50% across the board and belts are being tightened. I hate to be the doom and gloom guy all the time but better a realist than being in lala land. If you say they are a big company then that means they have higher overheads as well.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 8:08 am
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Be nervous of new projects unless well funded. My guess is that most of your work will probably be in ksa. Expect lots of travel.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 3:01 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

And be prepared to be treated as a "Hindi".That term is often used generically by Arabic speakers in KSA and other Gulf countries, in a derogatory way, to refer to anyone from what uses to be the Raj.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 3:10 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

My perspective as a Canadian who frequently travels to and has a few expat friends living and working in Dubai in middle to senior roles, considering your experience and age it sounds like your company is low balling you.

Secondly, AED 50,000 per month (all in) in UAE may not be sufficient to pay for the same standard of life that CAD 11k can in Canada. But I understand that this move will bring you other benefits also.

IBK made some great points and I really respect his views on this board. Sounds like you are confident about the stability of this job however, if I was you I'd still try to find ways to have your employment contract governed by the Canadian law as a deterrent in case things were to go tits up.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 3:28 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Maxima - Certainly do not mean it in the spiritual way. I am hoping they will be able to spend a bit more time back home with grand parents and family to maintain the bond. I do believe to be a balanced individual you need to know where you come from and then adapt based on where you are. We're living in a global market now, the next generation HAS to be adaptive, inclusive and much more accepting to survive and get ahead. I actually worked in Qatar for 1.5 years and know exactly what you mean, I hated the environment and resigned as it was not a good fit. I was "blocked" for 2 years for leaving early but really did not care.... now the whole country is "blocked"

Irishbeekeeper / Millhouse - Thank you for the honest feedback. I don't see it as all doom and gloom but more reality on the ground. Job security is not guaranteed anywhere but you definitely have more rights here. I already faced the worst case scenario when I resigned from Qatar and moved back without a job but was able to land something within a week (I was lucky). The "what if" scenario will always be there and all I can do it to make sure I mitigate the risk as much as I can.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 4:55 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Shake2000 - I think that you have really made up your mind and that you are just 'collecting" arguments to help you feel more comfortable/confident for your choice. I say this not as something bad; I've been there too!

Having said that, financially the move doesn't make sense. I'm sure you have your own excel worked out. In summary, after you take out housing and schooling you are left with an extra 1,000 dollars per month (assuming full bonus is paid). Granted you may rent your place back, but things in Dubai are expensive, and in any case most people wouldn't move to ME for an extra one or two thousand dollars per month.

In such a new project, as the one you describe, the pressure will be there to deliver (from day one), so this could make work/life balance worse. At the end of the day you can only decide, but financially-wise, moving is not an attractive choice.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 5:27 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Omega7 - Valid comment. The truth is, I would like to move and I am seeking feedback from people on the ground. Am I packed up and sitting at the airport? No. I am certainly not asking for people to make the decision for me but experience counts and you guys/gals are much more experienced on this topic than I am.
The comment about Excel made me chuckle, I actually do have an Excel with detail breakdowns.
I am struggling to understand the math in your numbers. If I were to assume housing + schooling = 18K +8K per month, I get to 26K and am left with 24K. How do you get to the $1,000 number? The conversion rate is something around 2.8. I understand it is pointless to do a 1:1 compare but rents in Toronto are going up, a Decent 4 bedroom house in Oakville (45 min train + drive to station) will easily cost you $3,200 CAD before utilities. This is significantly less than Dubai but the % difference in pay makes up for it. I do not plan to move back to my place as it is not big enough for the family and based on location and demand is more of an investment. I am considering it a write off for this calculation.
FYI..I never include bonus numbers in my monthly calculations, it is never guaranteed.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 5:34 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Agree with your comment on IBK, I do respect the opinion I got.

Oh how I wish I could have the contract governed by Canadian law (excluding tax of course). The organization is one I used to work for in Canada before I left and moved to independent contracting. I am not their employee today and the Middle East lead is someone I met while there working on different projects. The individual reached out to me when they were initiating the project and even had me fly in for a week (they paid) as they formalized next steps and plan (I am not an employee so had to sign an NDA)

Originally Posted by Edo
IBK made some great points and I really respect his views on this board. Sounds like you are confident about the stability of this job however, if I was you I'd still try to find ways to have your employment contract governed by the Canadian law as a deterrent in case things were to go tits up.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 6:14 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

Originally Posted by shake2000
I am struggling to understand the math in your numbers. If I were to assume housing + schooling = 18K +8K per month, I get to 26K and am left with 24K. How do you get to the $1,000 number? The conversion rate is something around 2.8. I understand it is pointless to do a 1:1 compare but rents in Toronto are going up, a Decent 4 bedroom house in Oakville (45 min train + drive to station) will easily cost you $3,200 CAD before utilities. This is significantly less than Dubai but the % difference in pay makes up for it. I do not plan to move back to my place as it is not big enough for the family and based on location and demand is more of an investment. I am considering it a write off for this calculation.
FYI..I never include bonus numbers in my monthly calculations, it is never guaranteed.
I may have miscalculated something, but here is how i see it.

11k CAD = $8.5K/month (USD)
36K AED (26+10k bonus) = $9.8k or $1.3k/month extra

If bonus is not there (valid approach also) then it's even less per month, actually you are losing $1.5k/month.

I'm sure your excel has a great number of factors, that may make the numbers above better or worse. I'm sure there are other non-tangible factors that may influence your decision even more (you mentioned a few already).

At face value though; why move to ME for less?
One may of course have reasons for doing exactly that but this how some (I dare say, most) would feel.
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Old Feb 28th 2018, 6:35 pm
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Default Re: To jump or not..!

I think you misread, the base is 50K AED not 26K.

26K, I would definitely not be here wasting everyone's time.

Originally Posted by omega7
I may have miscalculated something, but here is how i see it.

11k CAD = $8.5K/month (USD)
36K AED (26+10k bonus) = $9.8k or $1.3k/month extra

If bonus is not there (valid approach also) then it's even less per month, actually you are losing $1.5k/month.

I'm sure your excel has a great number of factors, that may make the numbers above better or worse. I'm sure there are other non-tangible factors that may influence your decision even more (you mentioned a few already).

At face value though; why move to ME for less?
One may of course have reasons for doing exactly that but this how some (I dare say, most) would feel.
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