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Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Old Jun 2nd 2015, 7:47 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
@primularossa

Makes sense; I'd vote for Doha as well with my wife.

I'm just a bit confused (yet not really too surprised), why people seem to have so strong negative feelings about Doha.
In Doha, probably also in many other places in GCC, everything is fake and facade. Expats simply overlook many things as they get $$. There is nothing to see here but malls and shops, which are not appealing to me. Greens and water is non-existent.
Traffic:
Traffic is a nightmare especially in rush hours (all times are rush hours actually). The arrogant people behind the wheels doing all sorts of nasty tricks just to advance a couple of meters! They know nothing about sensible driving and they are willing to crash into you should you stay in their way. Road patrol is non-existent and the locals have all the right to do whatever on the road (it is their country and you are a guest!). If you have any simple road accident even a little scratch then you will waste more than 2 weeks running between traffic police, insurance company and workshop. If you are parking then be prepared to be hit by some idiots who will –of course- flee the scene. A colleague of mine has his car hit and damaged while he was shopping. Another colleague was also hit while parking but he was too lucky to catch the guy, however, his insurance company refused to approve repair as it was the other party’s fault despite he has full premium!. He ended up not repairing his 2015-model car!
Supermarkets
Going to supermarket you think a famine is going to happen soon. Customer service is non-existent. I never asked any supermarket staff about anything and get a useful answer! Once I was in Carrefour and I asked about something. The staff sent me from one to another and I finally spoke to the manager. I asked him about the item both in Arabic and English and he assured me it is not available only to find it accidentally on a shelf later. If you find any item you like today then most likely you will not find it a few days later. Some items disappear for weeks with no reason. (For instance: currently there is no baking soda anywhere in Doha for unknown reason!). They don’t bother to explain (not to say to apologies) for absence of these items. They simply say it is out of stock and only God knows when it comes back. Fruits and vegetables rarely survive not being bruised as the lazy laborers just throw them instead of handling them gently.
Schools
Getting your kids into a “good” school in Doha is very hard, and the only way is to follow the top-down approach. Otherwise don’t even dream to get any place in any of what is considered to be a good school. If you were lucky and managed to find places for your kids then you should be prepared to pay lots of $$ for tuition, uniform, books, trips, etc and they will suck your blood if they could. Yet, the level is nowhere close to any average school overseas. Unless you are lucky enough and the school is close where you live then be prepared to wake up too early in the morning to deliver your kids to schools. Relation between parents and schools is only money-based. If you ever think of talking to any of the school teachers then you need to arrange appointment, go to school and submit your id to get a visitor card (luckily they don’t have body scanner), then speaking to receptionist who does not understand English (yet insisting speaking English) and wait for some time before his/her majesty allows you in.

Weather
Although I can tolerate hot weather but I can’t tolerate breathing dust. As somebody said, breathing here especially when a sandstorm hits is like sitting in the bag of a vacuum cleaner. I must say the air quality here is very bad and I fear having respiratory problems. I feel sorry for those who work outdoors. Even indoors you can’t escape breathing dust every now and then (check your AC filter to see).

These are just examples of what you can experience in Doha and there is much more. Having said that, I don’t regret coming here (I am not moaning) but wanted to give you an idea of the drawbacks here. You can always look at the full-half of the cup.

Last edited by EastWest; Jun 2nd 2015 at 7:52 am.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 10:26 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

@Primularossa

Thanks for sharing the positive aspect of life in Doha. It's encouraging :-)

@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:08 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Well, as I said before I never lived in KSA but have been there many times and know many people working there. To say the least, nothing is like KSA. If traffic for example is bad in Doha, then multiply it by 10 times or more for KSA. It has the highest road fatality with a daily average of 19 deaths.
KSA is much more larger than Qatar, which can be a positive thing and the market is much more bigger.
Weather can be slightly better than Doha in some parts of KSA (I think), especially the sand storms which can be avoided if you are in the western part of KSA.
I know people here in Doha who are NOT willing to move to KSA no matter what and regardless to any increase in their salary, and I know some International companies paying staff 1.6 of their salary should they opt to move to KSA.
Personally, I would move to KSA if and only if I get a job at very specific companies such as ARAMCO, where employees are treated different than elsewhere in the magic kingdom.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:12 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
@Primularossa

Thanks for sharing the positive aspect of life in Doha. It's encouraging :-)

@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
KSA will command a premium from Doha.

But Doha should command a premium from Dubai.

IE: 50,000 in Dubai = 55,000 in Doha = 60,000 + in KSA.

10% step for Doha is about right.
20% total step from Dubai to KSA is about what companies want to pay.

If it's worth 10% on top of the Doha money then do it. If it's not worth the 10% and you're happy with what you can save in Doha and the life you can live then don't do it.

Don't try and make it more complicated than it is. People are going to disagree with me over what % it is for them to go. I don't really care. I'm telling you to work that figure out for yourself. It will vary by industry, by level, by position, by company. There's no hard and fast rule.

Try this:

Do you want to live in Doha? Or do you want to live in KSA? 1-0 Doha I expect.

Is the money in Doha enough for you to meet your savings target and living standards target? Probably.

Is Doha a reasonable enough place to live? Is it going to afford you the ability to do things you enjoy - beach, golf, shopping, boozing, whoring. I expect it is.

If the answer to the first is as I expect and the answer to the second two positive as well, then why look further? Why make life deliberately harder for yourself and more miserable?

At a stab, you'll want out of KSA a weekend a month. That's probably 1000 in Fly Dubai tickets. Cheap hotel say 1200 for both nights in Dubai. Beers on night one 500 say. Brunch and beers on day two 1000 say. = 3,700. Plus a bit, 4000 for the weekend. I can actually conceive paying that as well.

So, once a month, there's your 10% (assuming 50/55/60 ratios). GONE. Just to try and keep sane.



Just looked again - the packages you quote are confusing, one you say all in plus housing etc. What's the actual difference? 40%? Then why do you ask what the answer would be at 20 or 30%?

I'm confused, it looks like you've got a cracking offer in KSA and a cracking offer in Doha. If Doha achieves your financial goals then take it. KSA is, as a whole, a complete and utter ****ing dump. Doha, is a shitbed of idiocy but I've been there and didn't think it was too bad - I know lots of people who have a very good time out there as well.

You need to work out which offer works for you.

Don't worry about what exact % premium applies to you, it doesn't sound like you know what the difference between the offers actually comes out at.




NB: This is assuming all other things equal - same job, same company etc.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:15 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Thanks for the note.
Is the 1.6x compared to a salary in Doha? Any ideas as to what is the final KSA salary that they would take? e.g. More than 70,000 QAR per month?

So overall it seems, that even yourself who isn't exactly fond of Doha, you wouldn't really consider moving to KSA. This is helpful, as Doha for me has several pluses and the $ differential is not that good (maximum differential expected is 40% in favor of KSA).
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:18 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
Thanks for the note.
Is the 1.6x compared to a salary in Doha? Any ideas as to what is the final KSA salary that they would take? e.g. More than 70,000 QAR per month?

So overall it seems, that even yourself who isn't exactly fond of Doha, you wouldn't really consider moving to KSA. This is helpful, as Doha for me has several pluses and the $ differential is not that good (maximum differential expected is 40% in favor of KSA).
Take the job in Doha. Saudi is a ****ing hell hole.

I would want a minimum 150% pay rise to even consider KSA.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:39 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Take the job in Doha. Saudi is a ****ing hell hole.

I would want a minimum 150% pay rise to even consider KSA.
Omega: You've got +150% from Scamp, +10% from someone else, and +£50k from me (and some other comments, too). Each person has his or her own view, because each persons' dynamics, goals and tolerance levels are different. Most have told you that Saudi's shittier than Doha, and by a fair degree (and with some details)--only you can come up with the uplift you'd need to eat the thicker shit sandwich that is Saudi (the more bread you have the less shit you have to eat, or the better it tastes).

If you're going to end up with 60% more of £x in your pocket, only you know how important that is to you, and only you know (or can predict) your tolerance level for what you're likely to encounter in the Magic Kingdom.

Time to man-up and make the decision, my friend.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:44 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Thanks Scamp for your note - very helpful. Apologies if my original post was confusing, but let me try to straighten things out.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume that the two offers are exactly the same with the only difference being the 40% differential i.e. 50k in Doha and 70k in KSA - just for clarity housing is on top of both these figures.

So the dilemma I have is this: on the one hand the Doha salary affords me a good lifestyle and significant savings, on the other hand KSA offers even more money and more savings for the same expat time. Now the key question is: does this extra 40% (or 20k per month) justify the move to KSA?

If the answer is 'yes', then I was wondering if one would again answer 'yes' if the premium got reduced to 30% or 20%. I ask this question not merely out of curiosity but because the offers are presumably negotiable and could change in the next few weeks

From what you wrote, I understand that you'd probably take the Doha package instead of moving to KSA. Personally I'd put the premium from Dubai to Doha and from Doha to KSA at a higher percentage level than just 10%.

However, as in this case the premium involved reaches 40%, I cant but be very cautious and skeptical about what to do as the money at stake is a lot; and this is precisely the reason why I asked the forum's advice.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:46 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
Thanks Scamp for your note - very helpful. Apologies if my original post was confusing, but let me try to straighten things out.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume that the two offers are exactly the same with the only difference being the 40% differential i.e. 50k in Doha and 70k in KSA - just for clarity housing is on top of both these figures.

So the dilemma I have is this: on the one hand the Doha salary affords me a good lifestyle and significant savings, on the other hand KSA offers even more money and more savings for the same expat time. Now the key question is: does this extra 40% (or 20k per month) justify the move to KSA?

If the answer is 'yes', then I was wondering if one would again answer 'yes' if the premium got reduced to 30% or 20%. I ask this question not merely out of curiosity but because the offers are presumably negotiable and could change in the next few weeks

From what you wrote, I understand that you'd probably take the Doha package instead of moving to KSA. Personally I'd put the premium from Dubai to Doha and from Doha to KSA at a higher percentage level than just 10%.

However, as in this case the premium involved reaches 40%, I cant but be very cautious and skeptical about what to do as the money at stake is a lot; and this is precisely the reason why I asked the forum's advice.
In case you missed it:

Omega: You've got +150% from Scamp, +10% from someone else, and +£50k from me (and some other comments, too). Each person has his or her own view, because each persons' dynamics, goals and tolerance levels are different. Most have told you that Saudi's shittier than Doha, and by a fair degree (and with some details)--only you can come up with the uplift you'd need to eat the thicker shit sandwich that is Saudi (the more bread you have the less shit you have to eat, or the better it tastes).

If you're going to end up with 60% more of £x in your pocket, only you know how important that is to you, and only you know (or can predict) your tolerance level for what you're likely to encounter in the Magic Kingdom.

Time to man-up and make the decision, my friend.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:54 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

@Scamp

It's clear now. Thanks!

@Bahtatboy

No doubt it's an individual choice and either way I would need to soon make up my mind.

However I just seek everyone's input, as it's not an easy choice. That's because apart from the $ differential for which I have already decided that KSA is not worth it, there is also the element of the company brand name. In KSA we are talking about the country's O&G firm whereas in Doha it's just a governmental company. However, Doha wants me more (at least this is my perception) whereas for KSA i'd be just another employee among the many.

So too many variables - but I honestly thank everyone for their input.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 11:59 am
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
Thanks Scamp for your note - very helpful. Apologies if my original post was confusing, but let me try to straighten things out.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume that the two offers are exactly the same with the only difference being the 40% differential i.e. 50k in Doha and 70k in KSA - just for clarity housing is on top of both these figures.

So the dilemma I have is this: on the one hand the Doha salary affords me a good lifestyle and significant savings, on the other hand KSA offers even more money and more savings for the same expat time. Now the key question is: does this extra 40% (or 20k per month) justify the move to KSA?

If the answer is 'yes', then I was wondering if one would again answer 'yes' if the premium got reduced to 30% or 20%. I ask this question not merely out of curiosity but because the offers are presumably negotiable and could change in the next few weeks

From what you wrote, I understand that you'd probably take the Doha package instead of moving to KSA. Personally I'd put the premium from Dubai to Doha and from Doha to KSA at a higher percentage level than just 10%.

However, as in this case the premium involved reaches 40%, I cant but be very cautious and skeptical about what to do as the money at stake is a lot; and this is precisely the reason why I asked the forum's advice.
Here's what I'd do:

1. Tell KSA - thanks, you're considering it and will get back to them ASAP.
2. Tell Doha you want to take it, in all seriousness. But need a bit more. Tell them you need 58k. Give them some made up but solid reason for it. They'll come back with 55k.
3. Accept Doha.
4. Reject KSA.

Done.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 12:11 pm
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post
@Scamp

It's clear now. Thanks!

@Bahtatboy

No doubt it's an individual choice and either way I would need to soon make up my mind.

However I just seek everyone's input, as it's not an easy choice. That's because apart from the $ differential for which I have already decided that KSA is not worth it, there is also the element of the company brand name. In KSA we are talking about the country's O&G firm whereas in Doha it's just a governmental company. However, Doha wants me more (at least this is my perception) whereas for KSA i'd be just another employee among the many.

So too many variables - but I honestly thank everyone for their input.
Spend 3 years in Doha rather than 2 years in KSA and get close enough the same cash.

I wouldn't go to KSA if I had the choice between your two offers
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 12:18 pm
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Doha isn't Dubai but it's not Riyadh either . Doha is drab and non descript but it's a lot better than it was 5 years ago but it falls short .

If you get a decent deal here and expenses are covered then i'd go for it mate . Make no bones about it as i've said Saudi is a cesspit .

Just come and do the job make some cash , meet some decent people and keep the shite from your door and you'll be fine . With having no GCC experience that could be in your favour , a few brunches and a couple of boat rides around The Pearl and you'll think you're in Monaco......
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 12:41 pm
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by co durham boy View Post
a few brunches and a couple of boat rides around The Pearl and you'll think you're in Monaco......
It is now 48 degrees Celsius. I don't think Monaco will ever get close to it.
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Old Jun 2nd 2015, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers

Originally Posted by omega7 View Post

However I just seek everyone's input, as it's not an easy choice. That's because apart from the $ differential for which I have already decided that KSA is not worth it, there is also the element of the company brand name. In KSA we are talking about the country's O&G firm whereas in Doha it's just a governmental company. However, Doha wants me more (at least this is my perception) whereas for KSA i'd be just another employee among the many.

So too many variables - but I honestly thank everyone for their input.
You should know that the job security in any GCC country is 0 and forget about the brand name. BTW, is your offer in KSA from ARAMCO?

Last edited by EastWest; Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:47 pm.
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