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-   -   Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers (https://britishexpats.com/forum/middle-east-60/doha-vs-dhahran-tale-two-offers-859168/)

omega7 May 29th 2015 8:17 pm

Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Hi all,

Just wanted your input on the following offers:

- Doha

Work in a governmental organization in Strategy with an all-in salary of 50,000 QAR, plus as extra medical, housing, flights etc and 45 calendar days off. Contract annual but renewable. Odd I know, but I was told it was the only way to bypass the set grade structure and get this money. They sounded sincere, they paid for a face-to-face interview flying me from Europe, they will provide for the first 2 months accommodation at a hotel until i settle and generally they sounded as if they really want me (particularly my boss who is very-very senior within the company) - but then again i cant be sure and I don't want to sound (or be) naïve.

- Dhahran

Work in a governmental organization in Planning (less exciting job and boss vs. Doha), with an all-in (equivalent) salary of 70,000 QAR, plus as extra medical, housing, flights etc and 39 calendar days off. The company is very big and it'd look good on resume (for whatever that is worth).

Basically the question is if the 40% premium is enough to justify the move to Saudi vs. Doha, and if yes what is the cut-off level in your opinion i.e. would you say the same if the differential was 20% or 30%?

I've been to Doha once, and I must say that I was positively impressed (I guess I had low expectations). I've never been to KSA, but all information points to the fact that it's not the place to live.

However as the $ differential is substantial, I'd love to hear what people think. My concern is that even if KSA pays more, I could handle living there for less time than I could handle it in Doha (e.g. 2 years in KSA vs. 3 in Doha) so the money may in the end not be so much different, not to mention that KSA cant be IMHO a good place to live (I'm single btw).

Any input, however brief is very much appreciated, so please let me know what you think!

Bahtatboy May 30th 2015 7:46 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Depends mainly on your objectives, which are, I guess, centred on your future job prospects and savings potential.

I've nominally set my live-and-work-in-Saudi-threshold salary very high, with a £50k pa reduction if it was in an all-singing all-dancing compound. Even then I'd think twice, both times long and hard. If the difference in cash is important to you, then you may want to view Dhahran as where you spend 5 nights a week (assuming you'll be working 5 days a week), and then bugger off somewhere less awful for the weekends (Bahrain or UAE in particular). I honestly couldn't contemplate "living" full-time in Saudi unless it was in a fully-westernised compound.

omega7 May 30th 2015 6:04 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Thank you very much for your reply Bahtaboy.

Well in the case of the Saudi offer, the budget does afford me a western compound, otherwise I wouldn't even entertain the idea of renting (on my own) just a flat in Dhahran. But even living within a compound doesn't sound too appealing (with mainly families living there and me just coming alone and single).

On the one hand, the 40% differential comes down to the non-negligible amount of $65,000 p.a. which is serious money, and that's without even accounting for the savings that a life in Saudi entails compared to one in Doha. On the other hand though, I'm beginning to think that to compensate the Saudi life I'd need to increase dramatically my trips to Dubai to retain my sanity, so the actual $ differential may come in the end to a lesser amount. Regarding the prospects I could alter sell both jobs, but making money now is the key objective.

Had you ever had to choose between such two offers, or is it something that you have just thought about?

My friends in Dubai have all argued against Saudi, but when they realize the money involved I can tell they all do have second thoughts.

Anyone else who may want to help me decide?

EastWest May 31st 2015 5:43 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
It is difficult to choose really. I have been living in Doha for over a year now but not lived in KSA. I have been many times to KSA for short visits (~ a month each) and know many people working there so have an idea of what sort of life to expect in KSA. To say the least, nothing is like living in KSA and I would think a thousand time before taking a job there. It is medieval age! In your case, being single is a big plus. You also need to consider living cost difference between KSA and Doha. Food prices in KSA from what I see (the last time I was in KSA was last Feb) is around half of it in Doha. Again as you are alone this saving on food will be marginal.
In the end it depends on what you want. If you are looking for saving then go to Dahran otherwise take the Doha offer. You did not mention the contract length in KSA?

Millhouse May 31st 2015 6:03 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
To cope being a mercenary, you have to accept one of two options: monk or meat-head.

i.e. you have to (1) devote yourself to your work/religion, or (2) spend your time in the gym.

If you can't face these options, then the money isn't going to help you.

I always said I could cope in Saudi, but having been a lot recently, I've decided that the absolute lack of females would make it a deal breaker.

omega7 May 31st 2015 7:40 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
@EastWest

I'm indeed focused at saving as much as possible (as I guess pretty much everyone else taking a job in the ME), but retaining my sanity is also key for both staying healthy and also not packing my bags anytime soon and going back without having really saved much. For example I am afraid that if KSA is too bad then even if they pay more, it wouldn't help me much if I manage only to stay there a year vs. Doha where I think one can stay longer.

One question though: why do you think that being a single is a plus for taking a job in KSA? I mean as a single there I wouldn't even have my family to support me, my wife to be with me etc So to be honest I see it as a negative and not a plus. But I may be missing something.

Contract for KSA is indefinite, whereas for Doha is annual (but 'renewable'). From the explanations I got from Doha, I am not particularly worried about the duration, as this is the way they suggested in order to by-pass the inflexible grading structure and offer me this money.

@Millhouse

I cant see myself being in the gym every day, and I'm a Christian so really cant see how KSA can work out. Thanks for your straightforward input.

Any other advice from anyone?

mentalist May 31st 2015 7:43 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Millhouse (Post 11661351)
I always said I could cope in Saudi, but having been a lot recently, I've decided that the absolute lack of females would make it a deal breaker.

There were plenty of females available when I lived in Saudi. You just had to be very careful. Alcohol consumption likewise.

Millhouse May 31st 2015 7:49 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by mentalist (Post 11661391)
There were plenty of females available when I lived in Saudi. You just had to be very careful. Alcohol consumption likewise.

I don't mean dating them. I mean just generally seeing them around. I find going to a restaurant or hotel and not seeing a single female just difficult. I'm not some kind of horny sex-pest, its just the lack of integration that bothers me when I'm there for a few days - then again, I respect that living there may well be very different.

Millhouse May 31st 2015 7:54 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Actually, you are not limited to Monk. The exact options now that I remember them are:

Monk - devote yourself to work
Skunk - give up all sense of personal hygiene
Hunk - live in the gym
Chunk - eat junk food and do nothing like the locals
Drunk - homebrew

Bungdit Din May 31st 2015 7:56 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11661389)
I'm a Christian so really cant see how KSA can work out

As a Christian you worship the exact same God as Muslims (and Jews). And you should also follow pretty much the same dietary laws (I guess you know that the Bible says Christians shouldn't eat pork etc). Muslims also believe in Jesus, but as a prophet, not as the son of God.

scrubbedexpat141 May 31st 2015 8:08 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Bungdit Din (Post 11661407)
As a Christian you worship the exact same God as Muslims (and Jews). And you should also follow pretty much the same dietary laws (I guess you know that the Bible says Christians shouldn't eat pork etc). Muslims also believe in Jesus, but as a prophet, not as the son of God.

Here we ****ing go.

co durham boy May 31st 2015 8:08 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
For in & out trips i can cope quite easily simply because i know i'm leaving at a specific time . It's basically eat / work / gym / sleep and repeat . To go full time would take some getting your head round . I'd want generous leave entitlement and bang on digs , both of which are not easy to get or negotiate . Plus i'd only do it on single status .

Make no doubt about it Saudi is a plutonium grade shit hole and long term living there will suck the life out of you eventually . So if you're going to do it then it must be for a large premium .

EastWest May 31st 2015 9:05 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11661389)
@EastWest


One question though: why do you think that being a single is a plus for taking a job in KSA? I mean as a single there I wouldn't even have my family to support me, my wife to be with me etc So to be honest I see it as a negative and not a plus. But I may be missing something.

Being with a wife and probably children is not a good thing in KSA. Unless your Mrs is working, she had to stay all the time at home reading or watching TV/gym etc, and if wants to go out she needs a taxi. And there is no where to go. Only malls and malls and that's it.
As for dress code, KSA is very conservative. Although I have seen very few westerner women without head cover/scarf/abaya in KSA, but it is very rare and looks odd as it will attract all males eyes. BTW in KSA and also to some extend here in Doha the way men stare at females I have never seen anywhere in the world!! It looks as they never seen a female in their life.

On the other hand, having kids means you need to find them good schools, and arrange for transport etc. This is a big headache. This is why I think being alone is a big plus.

DXBtoDOH May 31st 2015 9:44 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
I laughed.

Wrong.

It's not really the same god. The interpretation of who the god is VERY different. Wholly different. Not the same being at all.

Christianity is based on the NT, not the OT. The OT is where it says no pork. In the NT Jesus says it is not what we put in our mouths that makes people unclean (what we eat) but what comes out our mouths (our words) that make us unfit. Book of Matthew, I think.

Biblical history lesson courtesy of a content atheist.


Originally Posted by Bungdit Din (Post 11661407)
As a Christian you worship the exact same God as Muslims (and Jews). And you should also follow pretty much the same dietary laws (I guess you know that the Bible says Christians shouldn't eat pork etc). Muslims also believe in Jesus, but as a prophet, not as the son of God.


Bungdit Din May 31st 2015 12:25 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH (Post 11661480)
It's not really the same god. The interpretation of who the god is VERY different. Wholly different. Not the same being at all

If you say so.


Christianity is based on the NT, not the OT
And yet Christians are happy to pick and choose what they want to believe from both the OT and NT. If they completely disregarded the OT I wouldn't mind so much.

Beakersful May 31st 2015 12:41 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
You only live once. You'll spend money you thought you were going to save by getting out of KSA to clean, safe places with bacon, beer and babes.

Not sure how safe Qatar is going to be in the near future, but we're starting to have a bit of a kerfuffle here in Saudi with things blowing up and cops shot.

DXBtoDOH May 31st 2015 12:51 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
NT has always triumphed over OT. NT is about Jesus and his teachings and that is the core of Christianity. I like to explain the difference between Islam and Christianity by pointing out that the Christian prophet, Jesus, preached forgiveness and died for other people's sins, while the Muslim prophet, Mohammed, introduced a bunch of silly rules and ordered other people's deaths. That tells you everything you need to know about their respective gods. They may technically share a common origin in the Jewish god but that's where the similarities ends. They are, for all practical purposes, not the same god, not that it really matters as there's no god but human belief.

Anyway,

The cherrypicking of what to believe in beyond what was explicitly preached by Jesus in the NT has generally been considered one of the strengths of Christianity and allowed it to evolve over the centuries.

And the pork bit has never been a Christian issue from practically day one. :amen:


Originally Posted by Bungdit Din (Post 11661567)
If you say so.


And yet Christians are happy to pick and choose what they want to believe from both the OT and NT. If they completely disregarded the OT I wouldn't mind so much.


omega7 May 31st 2015 1:11 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
@Millhouse

Well I'm not into going crazy, so they way you describe KSA doesn't live much room for debate. Thanks.


Originally Posted by co durham boy (Post 11661422)
So if you're going to do it then it must be for a large premium .

Thanks for the point CDB. How much in your opinion should this premium be: is 40% more enough (or an additional $65k in annual savings)? I understand that there are certain people that wouldn't go to KSA for practically any amount. But if one were to go, what should this premium be? I understand that to a large extent it's up to the individual. My difficulty is that I don't know how bad KSA is (never been there before) so I'm trying now only to guess how much more I should take to make it worth it.

@EastWest

Well I understand your point. However, the idea of going to KSA alone isn't very appealing. I guess I feel that going there alone would mean also staying alone. And yes I'd be visiting friends in Dubai, but I would also like to have a community of people to socialize with locally. But I now understand your idea - thanks for sharing.


Originally Posted by Beakersful (Post 11661578)
You only live once. You'll spend money you thought you were going to save by getting out of KSA.

Very likely - thanks for the input.

Thank you all for sharing your views. I'd love to hear if anyone else has a view on the issue, particularly on what is the % premium in your view that would justify the move from Doha (which isn't exactly Dubai anyway) to Dhahran.

Alexa May 31st 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
I had more fun living 4 years in KSA than in living 11 years in Dohell. THAT I can tell you for sure. Oh...and I met my (western) husband while living in KSA. Just sayin'.....

EastWest May 31st 2015 4:04 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Alexa (Post 11661689)
...and I met my (western) husband while living in KSA. Just sayin'.....

Probably that's why you like KSA over Doha

omega7 May 31st 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Alexa (Post 11661689)
I had more fun living 4 years in KSA than in living 11 years in Dohell. THAT I can tell you for sure. Oh...and I met my (western) husband while living in KSA. Just sayin'.....



Well I guess as EastWest said above it does play a role in your perception of the place. I'm just curious what is that hasn't worked out in Doha? I mean you have relatively more freedom to do things with your husband, and cant think of anything that might be better in KSA vs. Doha (except the money of course). Granted you may meet the super right people in KSA and really have in the end a great social life (within a compound of course), but I guess that would be more attributable to luck than the actual place. But then again I may be missing something.

GolfGardener May 31st 2015 4:55 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
I'd listen to the doubts that you are clearly having and avoid the Saudi role for now. If, after spending a couple of years in Doha, you decide that you have a taste for further deprivation and more money, then you can think about a move to Saudi.

Given that your skills are clearly in demand and seem to be able to command a good package, have you tried looking for something in Abu Dhabi? There's lots of government organisations here in need of strategists, and you'll probably find it a lot more amenable than either of the options that you're currently looking at.

omega7 May 31st 2015 5:04 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Thanks GolfGardener for note.

In fact I did search last year in AD for a place and was successful in getting a similar offer in Strategy. The salary was 35k AED (plus an extremely generous housing-only allowance and the usual expat perks) and I found it too low to justify the move. Granted it's AD and I really liked it, but the money was rather low.

I like your idea of using Qatar as the basis and then looking around for either more money (KSA) or a more balanced life (UAE). Thanks again.

Bahtatboy Jun 1st 2015 8:11 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 11661420)
Here we ****ing go.

:goodpost::rofl:

Bahtatboy Jun 1st 2015 8:15 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH (Post 11661480)

Christianity is based on the NT, not the OT. The OT is where it says no pork. In the NT Jesus says it is not what we put in our mouths that makes people unclean (what we eat) but what comes out our mouths (our words) that make us unfit. Book of Matthew, I think.

In various places--some of the top scenes, in fact--all of God's words are to be taken as gospel (so to speak), so you don't get to pick and choose.

Sorry--introducing analysis, rationality and logic into the equation. I'm being stupid again.

primularossa Jun 1st 2015 1:11 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11661389)
One question though: why do you think that being a single is a plus for taking a job in KSA?


I am an European woman and mother and scientist, I work and live in Doha and I can cope with it. If my husband would tell me that he wants to move to Saudi with all the family, I will simply divorce. :-)

Life seems to be a prison for women in Saudi. You would just make your family really unhappy if you would bring it to Saudi.

take a look at the beautiful and touching movie "Wadjda" - from the first Saudi woman director.

omega7 Jun 1st 2015 1:17 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by primularossa (Post 11662419)
I am an European woman and mother and scientist, I work and live in Doha and I can cope with it. If my husband would tell me that he wants to move to Saudi with all the family, I will simply divorce. :-)

Well you are right in that I'm being selfish when I say that it's better not to be single and going to KSA. At the end of the day, I wouldn't want my wife to lose her sanity so that I can keep mine. Thanks for your insight.

On a separate but related note, in your answer you make it sound that you'd be 'ok' to let your husband go to KSA and work there as long as he doesn't take you/the family with him. If that's not the case, apologies I misunderstood. But if indeed you'd consider that, how much more (as a premium in his earnings) do you think would justify the move and the separation?

primularossa Jun 1st 2015 1:48 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Well, every couple has its own dinamics and equilibria and what will go for us might not fit other couples...I would not monetize everything. It depends also from the experience. I would ask my husband if he would be happy on the whole, considering pros and con's. If the position in doha is not bad, I would prefer if we all stay in Doha, less money but more happiness!!

omega7 Jun 1st 2015 5:17 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
@primularossa

Makes sense; I'd vote for Doha as well with my wife.

I'm just a bit confused (yet not really too surprised), why people seem to have so strong negative feelings about Doha. I say not surprised, cause as an expat in London I cant say I was super thrilled with it. It's an expensive place (which I couldn't really afford with my salary back then) not to mention the weather which can be at times depressing. So if I - as an expat - was neutral to negative about London, then I can imagine that it wont be difficult at all to develop negative feelings about Doha, especially if the money is not super good.

primularossa Jun 1st 2015 5:43 pm

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Well, of course places are different and it depends on what you like to do. But if you travel and move around the world, the best thing to do is to go with an open mind and try to make the most on any place. Except Saudi :-)
In London, I appreciate many things, for example the vivid cultural life and the museums - it is expensive, but there is a way to survive. The Barbican theatre is not expensive, the libraries with lots of videos and books on loan, the parks, the concerts of the Proms, many things....
In Doha, also you can find many cultural activities: The MIA, katara, the Doha film Institute, the Doha Sailing Club, going to the seaside in february, horse riding, visiting the surroundings, many different kinds of food, the jazz club at St Regis, concerts for free at the Qatar Filarmonic Orchestra, and time for social relationships. Up to now, I never get bored....

EastWest Jun 2nd 2015 6:47 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11662619)
@primularossa

Makes sense; I'd vote for Doha as well with my wife.

I'm just a bit confused (yet not really too surprised), why people seem to have so strong negative feelings about Doha.

In Doha, probably also in many other places in GCC, everything is fake and facade. Expats simply overlook many things as they get $$. There is nothing to see here but malls and shops, which are not appealing to me. Greens and water is non-existent.
Traffic:
Traffic is a nightmare especially in rush hours (all times are rush hours actually). The arrogant people behind the wheels doing all sorts of nasty tricks just to advance a couple of meters! They know nothing about sensible driving and they are willing to crash into you should you stay in their way. Road patrol is non-existent and the locals have all the right to do whatever on the road (it is their country and you are a guest!). If you have any simple road accident even a little scratch then you will waste more than 2 weeks running between traffic police, insurance company and workshop. If you are parking then be prepared to be hit by some idiots who will –of course- flee the scene. A colleague of mine has his car hit and damaged while he was shopping. Another colleague was also hit while parking but he was too lucky to catch the guy, however, his insurance company refused to approve repair as it was the other party’s fault despite he has full premium!. He ended up not repairing his 2015-model car!
Supermarkets
Going to supermarket you think a famine is going to happen soon. Customer service is non-existent. I never asked any supermarket staff about anything and get a useful answer! Once I was in Carrefour and I asked about something. The staff sent me from one to another and I finally spoke to the manager. I asked him about the item both in Arabic and English and he assured me it is not available only to find it accidentally on a shelf later. If you find any item you like today then most likely you will not find it a few days later. Some items disappear for weeks with no reason. (For instance: currently there is no baking soda anywhere in Doha for unknown reason!). They don’t bother to explain (not to say to apologies) for absence of these items. They simply say it is out of stock and only God knows when it comes back. Fruits and vegetables rarely survive not being bruised as the lazy laborers just throw them instead of handling them gently.
Schools
Getting your kids into a “good” school in Doha is very hard, and the only way is to follow the top-down approach. Otherwise don’t even dream to get any place in any of what is considered to be a good school. If you were lucky and managed to find places for your kids then you should be prepared to pay lots of $$ for tuition, uniform, books, trips, etc and they will suck your blood if they could. Yet, the level is nowhere close to any average school overseas. Unless you are lucky enough and the school is close where you live then be prepared to wake up too early in the morning to deliver your kids to schools. Relation between parents and schools is only money-based. If you ever think of talking to any of the school teachers then you need to arrange appointment, go to school and submit your id to get a visitor card (luckily they don’t have body scanner), then speaking to receptionist who does not understand English (yet insisting speaking English) and wait for some time before his/her majesty allows you in.

Weather
Although I can tolerate hot weather but I can’t tolerate breathing dust. As somebody said, breathing here especially when a sandstorm hits is like sitting in the bag of a vacuum cleaner. I must say the air quality here is very bad and I fear having respiratory problems. I feel sorry for those who work outdoors. Even indoors you can’t escape breathing dust every now and then (check your AC filter to see).

These are just examples of what you can experience in Doha and there is much more. Having said that, I don’t regret coming here (I am not moaning) but wanted to give you an idea of the drawbacks here. You can always look at the full-half of the cup.

omega7 Jun 2nd 2015 9:26 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
@Primularossa

Thanks for sharing the positive aspect of life in Doha. It's encouraging :-)

@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

EastWest Jun 2nd 2015 10:08 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11663171)
@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

Well, as I said before I never lived in KSA but have been there many times and know many people working there. To say the least, nothing is like KSA. If traffic for example is bad in Doha, then multiply it by 10 times or more for KSA. It has the highest road fatality with a daily average of 19 deaths.
KSA is much more larger than Qatar, which can be a positive thing and the market is much more bigger.
Weather can be slightly better than Doha in some parts of KSA (I think), especially the sand storms which can be avoided if you are in the western part of KSA.
I know people here in Doha who are NOT willing to move to KSA no matter what and regardless to any increase in their salary, and I know some International companies paying staff 1.6 of their salary should they opt to move to KSA.
Personally, I would move to KSA if and only if I get a job at very specific companies such as ARAMCO, where employees are treated different than elsewhere in the magic kingdom.

scrubbedexpat141 Jun 2nd 2015 10:12 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11663171)
@Primularossa

Thanks for sharing the positive aspect of life in Doha. It's encouraging :-)

@EastWest

I'm very glad you gave such a detailed (albeit negative) review of life in Doha. While I've only travelled and not lived in the region, I would reluctantly argue that the elements of your narrative are not Doha but rather GCC-specific e.g. horrible traffic and weather, expensive (and of debatable quality) schools, arbitrary rules etc.

My key question all along was not so much if Doha is a great place to live on a standalone basis. I think that very few, if anyone, would move to work and live in Doha if it weren't for the money. The key question was whether it's worth to get a premium and move from Doha to KSA, and if so, what should this premium be. So while in absolute terms Doha may continue being a 'horrible' place to live, my question is if in "relative" terms (i.e. in comparison with KSA), it's actually a much-much better place to live and hence one shouldn't really take any premium and go to live in KSA.

Again thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.

KSA will command a premium from Doha.

But Doha should command a premium from Dubai.

IE: 50,000 in Dubai = 55,000 in Doha = 60,000 + in KSA.

10% step for Doha is about right.
20% total step from Dubai to KSA is about what companies want to pay.

If it's worth 10% on top of the Doha money then do it. If it's not worth the 10% and you're happy with what you can save in Doha and the life you can live then don't do it.

Don't try and make it more complicated than it is. People are going to disagree with me over what % it is for them to go. I don't really care. I'm telling you to work that figure out for yourself. It will vary by industry, by level, by position, by company. There's no hard and fast rule.

Try this:

Do you want to live in Doha? Or do you want to live in KSA? 1-0 Doha I expect.

Is the money in Doha enough for you to meet your savings target and living standards target? Probably.

Is Doha a reasonable enough place to live? Is it going to afford you the ability to do things you enjoy - beach, golf, shopping, boozing, whoring. I expect it is.

If the answer to the first is as I expect and the answer to the second two positive as well, then why look further? Why make life deliberately harder for yourself and more miserable?

At a stab, you'll want out of KSA a weekend a month. That's probably 1000 in Fly Dubai tickets. Cheap hotel say 1200 for both nights in Dubai. Beers on night one 500 say. Brunch and beers on day two 1000 say. = 3,700. Plus a bit, 4000 for the weekend. I can actually conceive paying that as well.

So, once a month, there's your 10% (assuming 50/55/60 ratios). GONE. Just to try and keep sane.



Just looked again - the packages you quote are confusing, one you say all in plus housing etc. What's the actual difference? 40%? Then why do you ask what the answer would be at 20 or 30%?

I'm confused, it looks like you've got a cracking offer in KSA and a cracking offer in Doha. If Doha achieves your financial goals then take it. KSA is, as a whole, a complete and utter ****ing dump. Doha, is a shitbed of idiocy but I've been there and didn't think it was too bad - I know lots of people who have a very good time out there as well.

You need to work out which offer works for you.

Don't worry about what exact % premium applies to you, it doesn't sound like you know what the difference between the offers actually comes out at.




NB: This is assuming all other things equal - same job, same company etc.

omega7 Jun 2nd 2015 10:15 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Thanks for the note.
Is the 1.6x compared to a salary in Doha? Any ideas as to what is the final KSA salary that they would take? e.g. More than 70,000 QAR per month?

So overall it seems, that even yourself who isn't exactly fond of Doha, you wouldn't really consider moving to KSA. This is helpful, as Doha for me has several pluses and the $ differential is not that good (maximum differential expected is 40% in favor of KSA).

scrubbedexpat141 Jun 2nd 2015 10:18 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11663200)
Thanks for the note.
Is the 1.6x compared to a salary in Doha? Any ideas as to what is the final KSA salary that they would take? e.g. More than 70,000 QAR per month?

So overall it seems, that even yourself who isn't exactly fond of Doha, you wouldn't really consider moving to KSA. This is helpful, as Doha for me has several pluses and the $ differential is not that good (maximum differential expected is 40% in favor of KSA).

Take the job in Doha. Saudi is a ****ing hell hole.

I would want a minimum 150% pay rise to even consider KSA.

Bahtatboy Jun 2nd 2015 10:39 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by Scamp (Post 11663204)
Take the job in Doha. Saudi is a ****ing hell hole.

I would want a minimum 150% pay rise to even consider KSA.

Omega: You've got +150% from Scamp, +10% from someone else, and +£50k from me (and some other comments, too). Each person has his or her own view, because each persons' dynamics, goals and tolerance levels are different. Most have told you that Saudi's shittier than Doha, and by a fair degree (and with some details)--only you can come up with the uplift you'd need to eat the thicker shit sandwich that is Saudi (the more bread you have the less shit you have to eat, or the better it tastes).

If you're going to end up with 60% more of £x in your pocket, only you know how important that is to you, and only you know (or can predict) your tolerance level for what you're likely to encounter in the Magic Kingdom.

Time to man-up and make the decision, my friend.

omega7 Jun 2nd 2015 10:44 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
Thanks Scamp for your note - very helpful. Apologies if my original post was confusing, but let me try to straighten things out.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume that the two offers are exactly the same with the only difference being the 40% differential i.e. 50k in Doha and 70k in KSA - just for clarity housing is on top of both these figures.

So the dilemma I have is this: on the one hand the Doha salary affords me a good lifestyle and significant savings, on the other hand KSA offers even more money and more savings for the same expat time. Now the key question is: does this extra 40% (or 20k per month) justify the move to KSA?

If the answer is 'yes', then I was wondering if one would again answer 'yes' if the premium got reduced to 30% or 20%. I ask this question not merely out of curiosity but because the offers are presumably negotiable and could change in the next few weeks

From what you wrote, I understand that you'd probably take the Doha package instead of moving to KSA. Personally I'd put the premium from Dubai to Doha and from Doha to KSA at a higher percentage level than just 10%.

However, as in this case the premium involved reaches 40%, I cant but be very cautious and skeptical about what to do as the money at stake is a lot; and this is precisely the reason why I asked the forum's advice.

Bahtatboy Jun 2nd 2015 10:46 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 

Originally Posted by omega7 (Post 11663229)
Thanks Scamp for your note - very helpful. Apologies if my original post was confusing, but let me try to straighten things out.

For the sake of simplicity let's assume that the two offers are exactly the same with the only difference being the 40% differential i.e. 50k in Doha and 70k in KSA - just for clarity housing is on top of both these figures.

So the dilemma I have is this: on the one hand the Doha salary affords me a good lifestyle and significant savings, on the other hand KSA offers even more money and more savings for the same expat time. Now the key question is: does this extra 40% (or 20k per month) justify the move to KSA?

If the answer is 'yes', then I was wondering if one would again answer 'yes' if the premium got reduced to 30% or 20%. I ask this question not merely out of curiosity but because the offers are presumably negotiable and could change in the next few weeks

From what you wrote, I understand that you'd probably take the Doha package instead of moving to KSA. Personally I'd put the premium from Dubai to Doha and from Doha to KSA at a higher percentage level than just 10%.

However, as in this case the premium involved reaches 40%, I cant but be very cautious and skeptical about what to do as the money at stake is a lot; and this is precisely the reason why I asked the forum's advice.

In case you missed it:

Omega: You've got +150% from Scamp, +10% from someone else, and +£50k from me (and some other comments, too). Each person has his or her own view, because each persons' dynamics, goals and tolerance levels are different. Most have told you that Saudi's shittier than Doha, and by a fair degree (and with some details)--only you can come up with the uplift you'd need to eat the thicker shit sandwich that is Saudi (the more bread you have the less shit you have to eat, or the better it tastes).

If you're going to end up with 60% more of £x in your pocket, only you know how important that is to you, and only you know (or can predict) your tolerance level for what you're likely to encounter in the Magic Kingdom.

Time to man-up and make the decision, my friend.

omega7 Jun 2nd 2015 10:54 am

Re: Doha vs. Dhahran - A tale of two offers
 
@Scamp

It's clear now. Thanks!

@Bahtatboy

No doubt it's an individual choice and either way I would need to soon make up my mind.

However I just seek everyone's input, as it's not an easy choice. That's because apart from the $ differential for which I have already decided that KSA is not worth it, there is also the element of the company brand name. In KSA we are talking about the country's O&G firm whereas in Doha it's just a governmental company. However, Doha wants me more (at least this is my perception) whereas for KSA i'd be just another employee among the many.

So too many variables - but I honestly thank everyone for their input.


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