Potential Job in Ruwais Area
My username will probably give away what sector I am working in. I have some brief Middle East experience from a few months working there about a decade ago.
The job will be as an on plant manager/supervisor of a blue collar workforce (approximately 20-30 people, whom I expect will be Western as the role is specific to the sector and does not exist out side it). The role of the job would be to ensure operational compliance to the authorities regulations, as well as manage the work force. Salary will be approximately 45k to 50k AED per month for a 40 hour week (Hourly rate has only been spoken of in GBP at this point) - Medical Insurance, Accommodation and 4x Flights home per year are provided. There are no other perks included. My questions: .
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Salary looks fine.
Ruwais is not so fine for a single westerner. I suspect you'll be doing your golf/pub/eating out/Tindering during your inevitable trip to Abu Dhabi every single weekend. I wouldn't rely on your team of 20-30 to be westerners unless that has been specifically confirmed.... |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by Gavtek
(Post 12921474)
Salary looks fine.
Ruwais is not so fine for a single westerner. I suspect you'll be doing your golf/pub/eating out/Tindering during your inevitable trip to Abu Dhabi every single weekend. I wouldn't rely on your team of 20-30 to be westerners unless that has been specifically confirmed.... So whilst I haven't had that confirmed, I cannot see where else could provide staffing for suitably qualified and experienced technicians other than developed nations. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921546)
I know the tendency in the Middle East is for blue collar workers to come from cheaper, less developed parts of the world. However this specific technical trade is unique to the industry and there isn't exactly a global surplus of qualified people - and those people will also be getting paid well, no matter where in the world.
So whilst I haven't had that confirmed, I cannot see where else could provide staffing for suitably qualified and experienced technicians other than developed nations. Only make assumptions that are on the worst possible scenario. In this instance, assume you will be working in a locked room, underground and your co-workers are hungry bears. If that assumption sounds a bit unpleasant then ask someone what the team is like, where they're from and what their backgrounds are. Working in a Homer Simpson plant to an outsider who's watched the Chernobyl series is really terrifying (and cool). I'm sure they'll want to reference your skills and check you out so the least you can do is check them out too and ask for information. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921546)
I know the tendency in the Middle East is for blue collar workers to come from cheaper, less developed parts of the world. However this specific technical trade is unique to the industry and there isn't exactly a global surplus of qualified people - and those people will also be getting paid well, no matter where in the world.
So whilst I haven't had that confirmed, I cannot see where else could provide staffing for suitably qualified and experienced technicians other than developed nations. it was built by the South Koreans. It’ll probably be run by the North Koreans or whoever they have been selling their tech to, ie Pakistanis. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
OP, i would be asking the employer if you can do this job on a rotational basis, eg 4 weeks on /4 weeks off. Ruwais is an absolute shithole, going to AUH every weekend will make you even more depressed once you come back.
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by psychopomp1
(Post 12922844)
OP, i would be asking the employer if you can do this job on a rotational basis, eg 4 weeks on /4 weeks off. Ruwais is an absolute shithole, going to AUH every weekend will make you even more depressed once you come back.
What makes Ruwais so bad? |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
My username will probably give away what sector I am working in. I have some brief Middle East experience from a few months working there about a decade ago.
The job will be as an on plant manager/supervisor of a blue collar workforce (approximately 20-30 people, whom I expect will be Western as the role is specific to the sector and does not exist out side it). The role of the job would be to ensure operational compliance to the authorities regulations, as well as manage the work force. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12923775)
What makes Ruwais so bad?
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Is this package in a region of what would be deemed acceptable to a single man, mid 30's, and with 15 years of industry specific experience? It is between a 70% to 100% increase on the going UK rate based on 4.5 AED to £1 (although I understand the exchange rate is historically more like 5:1/5.5:1)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Is the Ruwais area as remote as it appears on the maps?
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
What is there to do there? Is the town nice? (My main hobby is golf, and I enjoy pubs as well)
There's very little to do there. There's a mall, and I think there's a cinema in the mall along with a few of the sort of restaurants that you find in malls. As a young, single guy I imagine the gym will be pretty much the only thing to do when you're not working or getting the hell out of there. There is one pub and one golf course within easy reach of Ruwais, at the Jebel Dhanna resort about ten miles away. I went to the bar once and everybody else in there were Koreans on what looked like a work night out from reactor construction. They seemed to be having a good time, but I imagine the novelty would wear off after one or two visits.
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Is there an ex-patriate scene in the town?
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
What would approximate costs be to entertain myself? (say to have 1 round of golf per week. 1 night in the pub per week and 1 meal out per week - typically what I do just now at home)
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
What is the cost of renting a suitable vehicle - I am assuming a basic car will not cut it?
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Are the driving standards as poor as I have heard?
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
I'm a single straight man. I've heard this male dominated place, mainly supplying the oil refinery? Is this correct?
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12921409)
Any other advice and knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Don't believe in any promises of bonuses or pay rises. Assume that what you can negotiate now is what you'll be getting for the rest of the time you're with that employer. Be prepared for lots of infuriating office politics, even if you don't think this is a role that would normally come with that as part of the package. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Thank you for the feedback.
Another question. They seemed to really care about me not having a degree to the point that I think it will be a blocker on getting the job - something I was a bit taken a back with - at my experience level, a degree is a footnote on a CV. I'm 37 years old, have 20 years of experience in the industry. 11 years of experience working at a senior/principle engineer level and 5yrs of experience at departmental management level - and a list of qualifications and courses as long as my arm, just none of them are degrees (plenty would be considered as being post graduate level) - I left school and went straight into an apprenticeship at a Homer Simpson plant, and have worked at several Homer Simpson plants since, being put through specific industry training and courses - all far, far, far more relevant than having a masters degree in chemical engineering or something. Am I reading too much into this, or is this worth worrying about? |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12931908)
Thank you for the feedback.
Another question. They seemed to really care about me not having a degree to the point that I think it will be a blocker on getting the job - something I was a bit taken a back with - at my experience level, a degree is a footnote on a CV. I'm 37 years old, have 20 years of experience in the industry. 11 years of experience working at a senior/principle engineer level and 5yrs of experience at departmental management level - and a list of qualifications and courses as long as my arm, just none of them are degrees (plenty would be considered as being post graduate level) - I left school and went straight into an apprenticeship at a Homer Simpson plant, and have worked at several Homer Simpson plants since, being put through specific industry training and courses - all far, far, far more relevant than having a masters degree in chemical engineering or something. Am I reading too much into this, or is this worth worrying about? |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 12931952)
No degree could make getting a visa more complicated. You know you're qualified and they know you're qualified but it's the rules. There may be exceptions in your field, or it could be that they're going to lowball you.
I just found it a bit amusing as in the UK it really is a footnote at the bottom of a CV by the time you get to 10-15 years engineer experience. I've sat on interview panels for senior roles and a degree is never spoken about. Maybe for entry roles, but senior roles experience is king. When I started in the industry they still did top quality apprenticeships, and the local Homer Simpson plant actively tried to attract good students from the local high schools that weren't wanting to go into law and medicine to go into the apprenticeship scheme (which had an entry requirement on a par with a half decent uni). Sure I got a helping hand as I knew somebody (everybody getting apprenticeships at that time did) but you needed to get decent marks at school regardless of who you knew. Uni was always my back up plan if I didn't land this job when I was 17. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 12931952)
No degree could make getting a visa more complicated. You know you're qualified and they know you're qualified but it's the rules. There may be exceptions in your field, or it could be that they're going to lowball you.
From an initial verbal offer of 45k, to now offering 36k based on qualification. Same terms apply with accomodation, health insurance, etc. Not sure that offer (about 25% increase on my current UK pay) is worth it? 45k is about a 60% increase. Over a 3 year duration it's a (UK) years salary of a difference between the numbers. How easy would it be to negotiate back to the original figure, and any advice on how best to go about it? Left the conversation at the thinking stage. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12933297)
You called that.
From an initial verbal offer of 45k, to now offering 36k based on qualification. Same terms apply with accomodation, health insurance, etc. Not sure that offer (about 25% increase on my current UK pay) is worth it? 45k is about a 60% increase. Over a 3 year duration it's a (UK) years salary of a difference between the numbers. How easy would it be to negotiate back to the original figure, and any advice on how best to go about it? Left the conversation at the thinking stage. If 42k works, go back with that. Work out what the numbers is and go back with it......but, be very, very prepared to walk away and say thanks but no thanks. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
"If I'm still sufficiently qualified to be offered the job ahead of all other candidates, then I'm still sufficiently qualified to get the offer we verbally agreed on. Otherwise, you are insinuating that you're willing to sacrifice quality for lower cost and if that is going to be the culture in the company, I may need to re-consider my candidacy."
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by Gavtek
(Post 12933792)
"If I'm still sufficiently qualified to be offered the job ahead of all other candidates, then I'm still sufficiently qualified to get the offer we verbally agreed on. Otherwise, you are insinuating that you're willing to sacrifice quality for lower cost and if that is going to be the culture in the company, I may need to re-consider my candidacy."
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Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by Gavtek
(Post 12933792)
"If I'm still sufficiently qualified to be offered the job ahead of all other candidates, then I'm still sufficiently qualified to get the offer we verbally agreed on. Otherwise, you are insinuating that you're willing to sacrifice quality for lower cost and if that is going to be the culture in the company, I may need to re-consider my candidacy."
Originally Posted by Millhouse
(Post 12933889)
Very well said.
They'll be thinking - you're not qualified so we shouldn't pay you the money of a qualified person when we can pay you less and get you to do the same job. Still screams the wrong culture, but they won't be thinking much beyond that I wouldn't have thought. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Was in conversation with an aquaintence out there, admittedly a completely different industry.
With provided accomodation in Ruwais (said you cannot rent houses there as the oil company owns them?) He said, for a low ball number I should be multiplying my current salary by 6 and adding 20%. Mid range add 30% and anything more than 40% is good. Without provided accomodation, the low ball number should be starting at adding 50-60% Would his assertion be fair? |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12934111)
Was in conversation with an aquaintence out there, admittedly a completely different industry.
With provided accomodation in Ruwais (said you cannot rent houses there as the oil company owns them?) He said, for a low ball number I should be multiplying my current salary by 6 and adding 20%. Mid range add 30% and anything more than 40% is good. Without provided accomodation, the low ball number should be starting at adding 50-60% Would his assertion be fair? Then you have to add on whatever you think it's worth. Some people demand silly numbers, some see the same money but tax free as enough. If you're on 50,000 in the UK for example, = 250,000dhs or 21,000 a month. I wouldn't leave the UK for that deal, unless someone sticks the other bits on top - add a housing allowance, flight and car allowance and suddenly you're thinking differently. Add 30% to the base and you're at 27k. Plus housing, car, flight could probably take it to 36k (4 months extra for house and car). Forget the add ons and do it at 60% and you get to 33,500 ish. In reality, your situation is a bit unique because you're going to a shithole. That money in Dubai is fine, it's a nice place to be. I'd suggest starting at your current, multiplying by 5 and seeing what it works out at when you consider accommodation, transport and other things are provided. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12934111)
Was in conversation with an aquaintence out there, admittedly a completely different industry.
With provided accomodation in Ruwais (said you cannot rent houses there as the oil company owns them?) He said, for a low ball number I should be multiplying my current salary by 6 and adding 20%. Mid range add 30% and anything more than 40% is good. Without provided accomodation, the low ball number should be starting at adding 50-60% Would his assertion be fair? About right in my opinion - then there is the basic floor... You want 40k a month. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12934382)
I'd probably multiply by 5 for a more recent exchange rate. That just gives your current deal in Dizzers.
Then you have to add on whatever you think it's worth. Some people demand silly numbers, some see the same money but tax free as enough. If you're on 50,000 in the UK for example, = 250,000dhs or 21,000 a month. I wouldn't leave the UK for that deal, unless someone sticks the other bits on top - add a housing allowance, flight and car allowance and suddenly you're thinking differently. Add 30% to the base and you're at 27k. Plus housing, car, flight could probably take it to 36k (4 months extra for house and car). Forget the add ons and do it at 60% and you get to 33,500 ish. In reality, your situation is a bit unique because you're going to a shithole. That money in Dubai is fine, it's a nice place to be. I'd suggest starting at your current, multiplying by 5 and seeing what it works out at when you consider accommodation, transport and other things are provided. He also says the 45k a month is low for the job location and seniority of the position and I should be looking at least about 55k a month for it. Housing is a funny one as it isn't going to be a permanent move - 2 to 3 years - I will still need to pay for my housing back in the UK. Is it fair to account for that in salary? He also mentioned the tax free thing - as this job isn't scheduled to start until June 2021 - I would need to be there until April 2023 before it is actually tax free (contract will only initially be to June 2023). If for any reason the contract is cut short (global pandemic anyone), I will be liable for quite a hefty bill from HMRC should I return home, and unless I've made it worthwhile - could end up going home worse off. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by HomerSimpson
(Post 12934509)
I questioned him about that, as the current exchange rate is about 4.8, so wondered why 6. He said just keep it at 6 as things are more expensive and it acts as a corrective factor. He also said it future proofs yourself as the exchange rate may well go back to where it was once Brexit settles down.
He also says the 45k a month is low for the job location and seniority of the position and I should be looking at least about 55k a month for it. Housing is a funny one as it isn't going to be a permanent move - 2 to 3 years - I will still need to pay for my housing back in the UK. Is it fair to account for that in salary? He also mentioned the tax free thing - as this job isn't scheduled to start until June 2021 - I would need to be there until April 2023 before it is actually tax free (contract will only initially be to June 2023). If for any reason the contract is cut short (global pandemic anyone), I will be liable for quite a hefty bill from HMRC should I return home, and unless I've made it worthwhile - could end up going home worse off. I don't know the going rate for Homer Simpsons at all, so I'm useless I'm afraid so can't comment on that. Housing - tough one this. If I'm you I'd factor in that it's an expense I'll have back home that needs paying and might try to keep it in play, but as an employer I'd wonder why you think I'm going to pay you more to pay your own mortgage off that you already pay now...if that makes sense. I wouldn't 'use' it in any negs. I'd say it's 'fair' for you to think about what you earn now and pay for mortgage, but not 'fair' to say I want 45k + 5k extra as I have a mortgage back home to pay....in summary. Correct on the tax front, but unless you move on the 5th/6th April you always run that risk. Or you move on the 9th and lie like I did. You're probably getting to the point that you need to tell them that it's X,000 you're after and be prepared to walk away if it's miles above their bracket. If it's close, then you need to know what the X-minus-a-bit-but-still-well-worth-it number is so you can settle on that if comfortable and they offer it. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12934520)
Fair comment. I think it was lower than 6 before Brexit but I'd use 5.5 to be balanced.
I don't know the going rate for Homer Simpsons at all, so I'm useless I'm afraid so can't comment on that. Housing - tough one this. If I'm you I'd factor in that it's an expense I'll have back home that needs paying and might try to keep it in play, but as an employer I'd wonder why you think I'm going to pay you more to pay your own mortgage off that you already pay now...if that makes sense. I wouldn't 'use' it in any negs. I'd say it's 'fair' for you to think about what you earn now and pay for mortgage, but not 'fair' to say I want 45k + 5k extra as I have a mortgage back home to pay....in summary. Correct on the tax front, but unless you move on the 5th/6th April you always run that risk. Or you move on the 9th and lie like I did. You're probably getting to the point that you need to tell them that it's X,000 you're after and be prepared to walk away if it's miles above their bracket. If it's close, then you need to know what the X-minus-a-bit-but-still-well-worth-it number is so you can settle on that if comfortable and they offer it. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
Cheers for the advice on this.
They wouldn't budge much. So decided to walk away. Ultimately, I make about £69k a year in UK, with decent pension included. I have itchy feet but my jobs a known quantity and I am not unhappy. Unconvinced an offer of 36k a month is worth walking away from that for, and been told from a few people that it isn't that good an offer relative to where the job is located, and my salary in the UK. |
Re: Potential Job in Ruwais Area
They will end up recruiting staff from India or Eastern Europe.
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